so 88% of top economists think that the UK will suffer financially for the next 5 years; 72% think the economy will suffer for the next 10-20 if we leave EU!

[Palehorse]

So we have the the IMF, the IFS, and now a big majority of top economists across academia, and the public and private sectors telling us that if we brexit, our economy will struggle for the next 20 years.

Surely this is the most important issue if the referendum. As a relativity low income family, I dread the future for my kids if we are forced to leave.

OP you are right to be concerned.

The Leave campaign have no plan beyond jumping up and down telling everyone it will be better after a leave vote and dismissing all the commentators who say it would be better to remain as paid idiots who are in the pockets of someone, anyone. Leave don't know how anything will be better they are just convinced it will be. It's much the same approach as Bush and Blair took to deposing Saddam Hussein and look how well that turned out.

As for our qualifications being better, I am not sure that doctors and lawyers from some other EU countries would agree. Maybe the mass media won't report the detail, but until the politicians give us facts, which they aren't, that's the only way in which anyone can make an informed decision. As usual, people will vote whatever they think is best for their own wallets. I'm not sure that the anti-capitalists, investment bankers or racist apologists are going to help them make the right decision though... It's like we are back in the 1920s or 1930s again with the Bolsheviks and the Mosleyites.

I would have voted to remain, but everyone is spinning so much BS I am tempted to spoil my ballot paper. It won't make any difference to me. I'm just a cog in the wheel. I am sure the politicians will continue to waste my taxes one way or another.

'It won't make any difference to me. I'm just a cog in the wheel. I am sure the politicians will continue to waste my taxes one way or another.'

But they won't be able to send billions of our taxes over to the EU bureaucrats every year if we leave, so we can hold our lot to account with what they do with it over here.

"EU demands foreign docs be allowed to work in UK WITHOUT any checks on qualifications

THOUSANDS of foreign doctors will now be allowed to work in the NHS without vital checks on their qualifications and safety, potentially putting millions of vulnerable Britons at risk."

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/624473/EU-foreign-doctors-work-UK-NHS-checks-qualifications

Why will coming out of Europe mean that all of a sudden we can concentrate on overhauling the current system. Our democratic system is nowt to do with the EU. Why haven't we been doing this already?

We have been doing this already. There have been campaigns calling for Lords reform, proportional representation and more. But a lot of energy goes into dealing with the EU and what it does, which could be focused on what Britain needs instead. We just don't need the EU, it's superfluous. Even Cameron has admitted we'd actually be fine without it.

Leave don't know how anything will be better they are just convinced it will be.

That's enough for me. I don't need to know exactly what's going to happen and of course the Remain side have no idea how much worse the EU may get. Brexiters know we don't like the EU or its future plans, and are confident that Britain can do better, as it has for centuries before the EU existed. We know that it will be better to live in our own democracy and in charge of our own funds instead of having a creaking, undemocratic Nanny EU, big business and the international elite decide what we do in their own interests.

Many of us have lived in Britain both in and out of the EU and prefer "out". Yes, even if there's less money; we've survived it before. It's frustrating to see the Remain side so timid about what might be around the corner, happy instead for the EU to keep knocking our confidence so they can spoon-feed us and tell us what's right for us. Great Britain is going to be what we make it; that is what it will "look like".

Britain can do better, as it has for centuries before the EU existed.

Hyperbolic statements like this don't make any sense. The British nation state has existed about 300 years give or take. In that time there's been some pretty great times and some truly awful times. Harking back to centuries past simply isn't relevant to now.

What perplexes me is the apparent Brexit idea that there is some special better wondrous British way of doing things that is somehow magically transmitted by being-born-in-Britain fairy dust. That as 'Britain Resurgens, Britain Prima' our marvellous democratic process (the process that so edifyingly elected this current administration) will achieve some mythical wave-ruling brilliance that is being horribly squashed by those mean EU bullies who want everyone to suffer particularly Britain because we are dontcha knowit Speshul.

Most of us don't know the real cost of leaving or staying; there is no counter-factual to the current situation and the world has changed dramatically since the beginnings of the EEC. But nationalism always seesm dangerous, limited and de facto prejudiced to me. So in the absence of any sensible reasons and data which supports leaving (and I don't just mean banner-waving We are Great Britain; We can do it better), I would prefer the status quo.

As Varoufakis said on the Andrew Marr Show today

I listened to him too, he has interesting insights. I agree with him that a collapse of the EU would be incredibly dangerous right now. The last thing we need is a return to a Europe made up of rival, bickering nationalist states.

He's also absolutely right that Brexit would not somehow isolate and protect Britain from the issues faced by the rest of Europe.

The last thing we need is a return to a Europe made up of rival, bickering nationalist states.

It's the EU which is made up of bickering rival states. Europe would be different if we were independent nations, as we could collaborate as and when necessary, without any need for political union. The EU gives a false sense of security.

I would prefer the status quo

Britain outside the EU is the status quo, as it always has been and after this blip it will be again. It's the EU muscling in which has interrupted this, to our detriment.

The Leave side don't claim to have a crystal ball like the Remainers, and because it's the Remainers who think money is more important than freedom. No amount of economic guesswork is going to be persuasive I'm afraid.

some special better wondrous British way of doing things

Every country has its own ways of doing things and should be able to make its own decisions to this effect. There certainly isn't a special better wondrous EU way of doing things. The EU is failing and if it hasn't been reformable in the past 40 years it's ridiculous of Cameron to pretend this will change.

Yes, we've ended up with the Tories at the moment but I think that's because they were the only party to offer a referendum on the EU, and because Labour keep picking leaders that aren't up to the job.

Juncker is even less up to the job, and the EU can keep its unelected Commission, secret lawmaking discussions, constant lobbying from big business, ridiculous beaurocracy and "generously" returning a fraction of our money with instructions how to spend it.

We can vote in general elections every few years, but may never have another chance to leave the EU. If we remain, we'd be powerless when the far right become more powerful around the EU, as disenchantment with the EU grows and causes factions.

Britain outside the EU is the status quo, as it always has been and after this blip it will be again.

No, pre-WW2 Europe is not the "status quo", and no matter how much you wish you could go back to it, you can't. Everything that happened in the second half of the 20th century is not a "blip". It's a completely different world now.

I live in another Eu country and in my experience it is just not possible to rock up and claim accommodation and benefits. I have a friend going through a divorce who lived here 12 years but as she never worked she is not entitled to anything beyond extra child benefit. As a foreigner you have to take your contract and passport to the LA who then send the police to check where you live where you say you do. For medical treatment you have to sign up to a social security plan. The benefits/Nhs system in the UK as it is therefore not dictated by the EU. There are reciprocal agreements yes. I still had to pay 100 euros in cash for an ambulance in France before it moved, EHIC card not withstanding.

You know, I couldn't actually give a toss about what those economists who bothered to return their questionnaire think. Many of them are not Uk-based. Many of them are working for EU-funded organisations.

Did they forsee the banking crisis?

Did they forecast the correct rise/fall in the FTSE last year?

If they have this wonderful insight into the economy why are they still working and not sitting in some tax haven living off the profits of their forecasts?

You can model any scenario to wish to prove.

That's why we have some economists saying Brexit would be a disaster and others saying not.

That's why we have some saying there will be a downturn for a specfic period or, if you are the Treasury - a permanent adverse effect, which of course is nonsense as no economic effect can be considered 'permanent'. Or some saying that Brexit would be greater than the Great Depression which Andrew Neil, an economist himself found breathtakingly crazy, or another saying this DIY recession will be just 0.1 loss of growth for 4 quarters - i.e. we'd hardly notice it. Or Prof Minford saying every family will be £900 a year better off.

The only purpose economists serve is to make astrologers look professional.

Their opinions are worthless.

I want to live in a country that is sovereign and self-determining, that can make its own laws to suit itself without outside interference.

That is truly priceless.

It's the EU which is made up of bickering rival states. Europe would be different if we were independent nations, as we could collaborate as and when necessary, without any need for political union

Yes, that is an approach that has worked incredibly well in the past.

I have to say I do admire the determined optimism of the Brexit camp that everything will be somehow amazing if we leave, despite having no idea or agreement what the exit model would be and even some on their own side admitting it would be painful.

The important decisions affecting UK are overwhelmingly made by British politicians in Britain. Unfortunately, the spineless bastards have made a habit out of blaming Europe for unpopular decisions.

Housing crisis? Made in Britain, by politicians from Thatcher to Blair and Osborne.
NHS crisis? Caused by record growth in numbers of sick elderly Brits. Government has chosen not to spend money on training more doctors and nurses, so has to bring them from abroad.
Libraries cut? Government has chosen to withdraw funding from local councils.

etc etc

If i owned a hotel with 80 double bedrooms I would be able to house 160 guests.

I would not be inviting 280 guests to squeeze into the existing bedrooms.

People who insist that annual net migration of approx 330,000 additional people has no effect on hospitals, schools and accommodation are fooling no one but themselves. We don't have elastic public services and we don't have a magic money tree.

pre-WW2 Europe is not the "status quo"

We joined the EU in 1992, which is less than half a lifetime away for most people in the UK.

What on earth do the Remainers do if they have to initiate and develop a project, write on a blank sheet of paper, or create something worthwhile from scratch?

Of course it doesn't matter if you don't know what something "looks like" before you've made it happen.

It doesn't surprise me that the turgid establishment and corporations prefer the safe, familiar, comforting option of Remain. But I'd much rather be in an exciting country where the inventors, visionaries and entrepeneurs are making things happen.

People who insist that annual net migration of approx 330,000 additional people has no effect on hospitals, schools and accommodation are fooling no one but themselves.

Large numbers of migrants coming to work in our hospitals, schools, care homes and construction industries are very helpful indeed seeing as we have huge staff shortages in all of them. We literally could not run the NHS without them. So migrants do have an effect on public services - a positive one.

It doesn't surprise me that the turgid establishment and corporations prefer the safe, familiar, comforting option of Remain. But I'd much rather be in an exciting country where the inventors, visionaries and entrepeneurs are making things happen.

Heartily agree with you here Winterbiscuit

But I think the Establishment position of sticking rather than twisting is very misguided. The EU is on a pre-determined path to ever-closer union. The social, political and economic model for the EU doesn't take the individual countries into account, they're just pawns in the game.

Large numbers of migrants coming to work in our hospitals, schools, care homes and construction industries are very helpful indeed seeing as we have huge staff shortages in all of them. We literally could not run the NHS without them. So migrants do have an effect on public services - a positive one.

That's just lazy group-think.

We have 1.7 million habitually resident UK citizens sitting on the dole. I expect many of them could do a lot of those jobs currently undertaken by migrants on minimum wage. I expect that some could actually take the place of the team of 9 eastern Europeans washing cars in my local Homebase - with appropriate training or dishing out the lunches from a trolley n mu local hopsital.

Once you encourage (£9,20 minimum wage soon) migration you effectively create a Ponzi scheme, whereby more and more migrants are needed to service the needs of the migrants who are already here.

BeakyMinder Undoubtedly the UK has some skills shortages. So why not introduce an immigration policy to attract those from all over the world who would best fill those skills gaps, rather than massively limiting non-EU but having no selection process at all for those from the EU?

Would you ever want to introduce an upper limit on migrant numbers? One million a year, two million, five million, ten million? The EU won't let us.

Oh FFS. The UK was never in for ever-closer-union anyway. We were never forced to join the Euro or Schengen, and anyway Cameron just negotiated an explicit opt-out from ever-closer-union.

Any further EU treaty has to be put to a referendum which we could say no to. BTW other countries are saying no to ever-closer-union too, which is why there probably won't be another treaty anyway.

The UK actually has a lot of muscle and negotiating power inside the EU. Don't believe this myth that we can't stand up for ourselves.

I thought you Brexiteers wanted to curb migration. But it seems instead you just prefer unlimited migration from non-EU countries instead. Which is it?