The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

Eeeh?
I've lost you Daisy. I'm not sure what you're on about.
I expressed my opinion, as everyone here, that was all. Not sure what agenda you're talking about etc etc

I completely stand by my opinion by the way. I believe most of the anti-EU sentiment has to do with xenophobia. I've believed this all along & think it's shameful.
I'm sure people have other reasons for wanting 'out' too but I think the xenophobia & nationalism (barely masked in this thread) are the driving forces.

I believe most of the anti-EU sentiment has to do with xenophobia.

For many of us, the main issue is democracy and sovereignty. This inspires me to want to leave the EU. If some other people favour Brexit due to xenophobia that isn't connected and won't affect my vote.

It seems the main reason given for Remain is usually the economy. But I don't think any amount of money can buy democracy. I'm still astonished that the UK is willingly giving up so much when it receives so little in return.

I find the British citizenship test funny too.

'What is a responsibility that you will have as a citizen or permanent resident of the UK?

• To keep your dog on a lead at all times
• To avoid shopping on a Sunday
• To look after yourself and your family
• To grow your own vegetables'

Itinerary
Democracy is priceless.We very much need to regain that .We have a golden opportunity to wrest it back.
It is a vote of a lifetime.
I shall happily vote to leave.

I just took a practice test out of curiosity, glad to say I passed with flying colours! I particularly rocked the questions about the Premier League and Henry VIII's divorce

Daisy - I've forked out 1200 quid, invested 3 days of annual leave and got naturalised. The test was and is utterly ridiculous and pointing that out has nothing to do with deriding Britishness. Why a would-be Briton needs to know where and when golf was invented unless they want to participate in a pub quiz I don't know.

The whole sovereignty argument is pretty rubbish tbh.

jackofkent.com/2016/03/five-things-about-david-cameron-and-sovereignty/

MEP Dan Hannan gives his damning synopsis of the lack of Democracy in the EU.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188453/The-case-Europe-MEP-Daniel-Hannan-reveals-disturbing-contempt-democracy-heart-EU.html

I think StillLoving raises some interesting points.

My SIL has been living here for about 26 - 27 years now. She still refers to Poland as her home, her country, and feels no loyalty at all to the UK.

When she talks about policy she says things like " what YOUR politicians are doing is stupid" .Never "our". I appreciate people like you STILL do feel love and loyalty to the UK and thats wonderful but many people dont. Its a cold and hard relationship with profits at heart not love for the country.

This is the big difference I feel between Remains and leaves, there seems to be a lack of passion for the EU but a great love for the UK>

still unfortunately we are not able to vet who comes into the country from the EU, its all based on complicated systems of checks, and which country feels what information about their citizens should be released, hence we have murderers coming into the UK who kill - again and we had no idea.

Not every single migrant does come here to slip neatly into our society and work hard actually either. When a great volume of people come at once, with ready made networks, it makes integration unnecessary, and there can be social problems.

Re Racism I think you raise some interesting points there too.

Many Black and Asian voters feel very strongly that " the European project has been anti black - we've seen the emergence of far right groups some of them pretty nasty" and " many black people feel they are competing for jobs with Eastern Europeans. The two things come together in the feeling among some that the EU is not right for us"

People have described the Eu as " a male white club" and "negative effects of mass migration from eastern Europe on the hopes of ethnic minorities" and

Some view Europe in explicitly ethnic or racial terms identifying fortress Europe as a way of keeping out non white immigration while allowing significant levels of European migration"

I can certainly see why this view is taken. I have had some personal experience of it myself.

Ah another Mail link from the most unironic poster ever, not realising a pro brexit tory MEP will write reader pleasing stuff for the mail.

Also to those who say the EU is a "pseudo democracy" something like 25% of the British electorate voted Conservative. The party who are now implementing policies not declared in their manifesto.

Further to this the TTIP " THE NHS IS AT RISK" screamers, go look at the 2012 act that virtualy confirmed privitatisation.

Seriously, every argument you come up with is refutable, try harder.

Daisy
How can you possibly be so convinced that exit will benefit the UK if you don't understand or have a view on what those benefits are?

For example how would brexit actually reduce non migration? How would you offset the 44% of exports that would loose access to the EU free market? How would you compensate industry that woul have to deal with the increased regulation of having to comply with EU and UK legislation? In short tell me how your promised land is delivered by a disastrous exit from the EU? - I'd love to know!

It seems the main reason given for Remain is usually the economy

I know the city has a very strong leave feel, but as for peoples personal reasons for remain, I have only seen very personal reasons for those wanting to stay - in a rabid fashion.

Lurked you seem to have a limited pool of information you fish from.

You try and discredit every single thing thats said against the EU, you never seem to even take a single thing on board, why are you on these threads

Rather than debate its more like a tank, " NO, thats rubbish, no, thats the Mail he has left his job he cant comment, he was x so he cant comment, he wants to leave and he is in the mail, so he cant comment, that article is rubbish because the man who owns the paper is bla"

Sure its important to look behind the sources but it doesn't mean you can dis credit and chuck out - every, single, comment, idea and criticism.

If the EU was INFALIBLE if it was strong, If it could deal with problems, in a confident, smooth, and UNITED way, we wouldn't be here would we? There would be no case for Brexit!

The FACTS are, its failing, it doesnt work, its NOT united, its floundering, its cruel, its damaged and written off a generation of young people stagnating with no oppotunities, its not democratic.

And now - with the threat of ISIS and the Refugee crisis, Europe is NOT safe.

I dont think he has discredited my arguments

I just see a tank rolling over any arguments at all, whatever they are.

Its silly.

one can argue anything at all, anything at all, even the most water tight case can be argued - anyone who has just seen the brilliant OJ / v the people can see that.

But if your going to roll out the same - nah crap, nah rubbish, its a little pointless being on this thread.

" NO, thats rubbish, no, thats the Mail shock he has left his job he cant comment, he was x so he cant comment, he wants to leave and he is in the mail, so he cant comment, that article is rubbish because the man who owns the paper is bla"

Yeah, well of course when the security issue is raised by a former head of MI6 and the current heads of Europol and GCHQ say different, yes its ok to challenge.

The Mail is fine to challenge because of the vested interests of the owners ( a tax dodging inherited non dom whose Grandfather agreed with Hitler and a newspaper which once wrote about a "Jewish influx" from Germany in the 1930s)

You disagree with facts? What the hell are we supposed to base our arguments on?

" If it could deal with problems, in a confident, smooth, and UNITED way, we wouldn't be here would we? There would be no case for Brexit!"

Make your case for Brexit then. Democracy? No, easy to dismiss with facts. Better for the UK economy? No easy to dismiss with facts.

Sorry, what a crock, I agree that the EU could work better if there was reform, outside we have no way to drive this, outside we'll sign similar deals to Norway, Switzerland and Iceland where we contribute, obey regulations and have no say.

"with the threat of ISIS and the Refugee crisis, Europe is NOT safe"

Excellent conflation of issues, refugees will come here anyway ( we take less than our other major EU countries BTW), ISIS? Yes we are not going to make ourselves a target by bombing Syria.

Tell me why its not working? Tell me what will be different after? You can't, won't but you'll still refer to the same faulty rhetoric. Utter dribble.

Tell me why its not working? Tell me what will be different after? You can't, won't but you'll still refer to the same faulty rhetoric. Utter dribble

I'm an in most probably, but please don't pretend the 'rhetoric' is just a Brexit thing because it really isn't. Fair amount of it flying around the remain campaign.

Same for the 'scare mongering'

Scare mongering is an accusation pulled at the Bremain side, when almost all of the Brexit side is about scaring people. Sorry, but that fits rhetoric!

But Lurked, there are Facts for and Against and there is plenty of un certainty on both sides.

You cannot reassure me, that Eu will rise to the migrant challenge, its already failing in that in many respects.
You cannot reassure me, its keeping terrorists out, we know - at least 5,000 are currently in Europe.

You cannot reassure me, the borders are strong, there are leaks, riots along all outer EU borders.

You cannot reassure me, that all EU intel is strong to prevent attacks, we know its not.

You cannot reassure me the EU is a strong sound, economic club to be in, its floundering!

All the facts and links have been provided many times over and all thrown out.
But these are the problems going on right now in the EU.

^^ Thats not scaremongering, thats reality, FACT of Europe RIGHT NOW.

I dont understand how people look at the mess of it all and want to be part of it.

There isnt a leg to stand on. Its not a fluid functioning body, its a broken floundering dying one.

Scare mongering is an accusation pulled at the Bremain side, when almost all of the Brexit side is about scaring people. Sorry, but that fits rhetoric!

In your opinion. I have heard many from the remain side.

As I say I probably a remain, so I'm not on the Brexit 'side'

Also just because others may not agree with you it doesn't automatically make it 'scaremongering'

Personally I can see this referendum getting as nasty as IndyRef did where those 'intrenched' on both 'sides' had their feet so dug into what they believed in, that they would refuse to hear or see anything wrong with their own campaign

We lived in Scotland at the time and quite frankly it wasn't a pleasant experience huge understatement

The U.K. Is obliged to accept judgements of the EU ,official document sneaked out before the EU Referendum.
Obviously the Government didn't want us to know!
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/14/uk-obliged-judgments-of-european-courts-official-document-from-m/

Stepintothelight
I agree wholeheartedly.