The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

They are elected democratically as other posters mentioned in detail above

The unelected EU Commission are the only ones who are allowed to propose legislation. The elected MEPs cannot initiate or propose legislation . That limits the power of those we elect considerably.

the irony is that if the system was more democratic it's quite possible that Britain would get less of a say in the make-up of the Commission, and that wouldn't make the Brexiters happy either...

"The unelected EU Commission are the only ones who are allowed to propose legislation."

But they are appointed by the democratically elected governments of the EU. They can only PROPOSE legislation it has to be ratified by the council of ministers and the parliament, they can't just draft laws and enforce them.

Also, as previously stated LAWS put in place by parliament that are influenced by the EU make up about 12 % of all laws in the UK.

When it comes to regulations of which the EU influences 54% of the things set in place, we would have to comply with large amounts of EU regulations if we want to continue trading with them following Brexit, yet have no influence. How is that more democratic?

I wasn't questioning whether EU migrants are net contributors or not. Different statistics show different answers to that one. I was looking at the numbers of people using its services. I have many friends who work in the NHS and all of them acknowledge the huge strain on services caused by migration. It is very difficult to budget and plan when we have no idea how many people will come here. How can our infrastructure cope with such uncertainty? The census used to provide the information to target resources, it can no longer do that.

TTIP poses a very real threat to the NHS. If you are in the Remain camp, what do think should be done with TTIP?

Do any of you actually read responses? :

"TTIP hasn't been ratified or agreed by the EU as yet.

One of the reasons it is taking so long is because the EU has far more bargaining power than the countries given as examples. TTIP is a worry, but if negotiated well it could be beneficial to EU business and have minimised risks.

Investor State Dispute Settlements (ISDS) are a complicated trade agreement tool and are part of trade agreements already. For example UK firms have brough ISDS cases against 42 countries to protect their investments in the past. In its current form it is being consulted upon by the EU and it is likely that because of the EU's strong position provisions will be put in that allow governments to regulate and rule whilst also protecting investments. "

Also, a new trade agreement would have to be agreed with the US if we opt out of the EU, the government will be keen to sign it and the terms will most likely be worse!

"Different statistics show different answers to that one"

Although generally acknowledged to be true though.

I think the "strain" on resources thing is an interesting point. As the OUMO points out the vast majority of EU immigrants are young and less likely to use services provided, and many return to home countries after a few years which explains the migration bounce in net migration in recent years.

The strain on resources is more to do with cuts to funding than immigration. As the UCL study (and others) have pointed out, a reduction in immigration would reduce the demand for these services but the fall it tax reciepts would be more detrimental to these services and therefore the situation would be unlikely to improve.

Brexit is being argued as some kind of miracle panacea to all the UK's issues when it really is going to be more detrimental.

Brexit posters always seem to take it for granted that if Britain leaves the EU, immigration will drop. But that's really not clear.

If Britain stays in the EEA (likely), obviously nothing will change. But even if it leaves, it's likely immigration will still stay high. Norway, Canada, Switzerland also have high levels of net immigration, for instance.

Open Europe analyses the steps Britain could take to change its immigration rules in the wake of an exit from the EU – adopting a points-based system to focus more on skilled workers who are needed in particular sectors, for example.

But it argues that an influx of low-skilled workers would still be necessary to feed the demands of the labour market. And it adds that imposing limits on the rights of EU citizens to live and work in the UK would have a likely cost in negotiations over future trade deals, as other EU states would probably want to restrict access to the single market as a quid pro quo.

As a post-Brexit Britain sought to negotiate new trade deals with fast-growing emerging economies such as China and India, they too may increasingly demand more favourable visa regimes or other ways to allow their citizens access to the UK, Open Europe suggests.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/13/brexit-unlikely-fall-immigration-report

Also if we were to be a member of the EEA or get any kind of deal on trade with the EU we'd have to accept freedom of movement.

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-trade-idUKKCN0WG16R

yes, it's looking like trade deals with the major powers would come with immigration, whether it's the EU, China or India.

and let's face it, it's not like the British government would be too saddened by the news. Once you get past the populist rhetoric, they all know that immigration is actually good for the economy, and they want high levels of immigration, including low-skilled immigration.

i dont think bringing the race card into this is even needed

Thanks for the new thread Daisy

The Tories will get even worse outside the EU.

I'm not a Tory, but I value the way we elect our government. We have the democratic right to vote in a general election every few years, for a different party to lead the UK. We can't vote out the EU parliament.

Also, the Tories seem to be in chaos at the moment and may decide on a different direction if there's a shakeup of the leaders and those in top positions after the referendum.

Also, the EU as it is right now doesn't have to be the only EU we support. Being 'pro' the EU does not mean being 'pro' all the shabby dealings / political fiascos the EU has become recently. We can participate hopefully in changing the EU from within.

Unfortunately we have so little influence in the EU that it will be difficult or impossible for Britain to reform the EU at all. I'm afraid the shabby dealings and political fiascos are just as likely to get worse.

We have the democratic right to vote in a general election every few years, for a different party to lead the UK.

Indeed. And you have the democratic right to vote in a European election every few years, for a different party to have the majority in the European Parliament.

We can't vote out the EU parliament.

...but you can't vote out the UK parliament either! You can only vote for a different party to take over, just as you would do in a European election

I'd like to know what the brexiters' plans are for the 1.26 million Brits currently living elsewhere in EU.

Probably more than that, many of them haven't bothered to register as living abroad.

Stillovingmysleep

This is my reason for asking.

You say you have been here decades as an EU citizen.

You say you have a stake in this country as an EU citizen but you say it costs
£ 1000 to become naturalised or British.

You make a huge song and dance about the unfairness of not being able to vote.
You I am sure would not have to pay out £1000 even 10 or 20 years ago.

But for some reason you have not bothered /wished to take British nationality.

Fine that's your choice but you can't have it both ways.

You cannot moan about having no vote BUT not bother in decades to apply to be British.
If you came as a child you have still had from the age of 18 /21 the chance to apply.

No there's another reason

Either you are not as committed as you say to this country or perhaps you are trying to stir up trouble.

Stillovingmysleep
Plus why do you deride the tests for the UK citizenship test as very funny.
That is deriding our values?

Or maybe I didn't feel the need to as I am an EU citizen and so far that has been more than enough to live easily and legally here and in any other European country

It is an utterly funny test. Question in the test I took: what do English people eat at Christmas? A) chicken b) turkey c) pork d) burger
If that's not funny then I don't know what is

And you have the democratic right to vote in a European election every few years, for a different party to have the majority in the European Parliament.

But there are 27 other member states (and set to increase) voting too, so the UK's percentage of the overall voice is very small, unlike Westminster where 100 per cent of our MPs have been chosen by UK citizens.

The EU is a pseudo-democracy where power is kept as far away from the people as possible. Our MPs can propose new laws to Westminster, as can ordinary people. In the EU, the unelected Commission is responsible for proposing new laws.

We can't undo EU legislation, as it can only be repealed by the EU. Why should the EU have permanent supremacy over UK law? EU law only goes forwards, in the ratchet effect. As Boris Johnson says here, "Ask how much EU legislation the Commission has actually taken back under its various programmes for streamlining bureaucracy. The answer is none."

Lobbying by large corporations who want to eliminate competition leads to new EU rules to benefit them over others. The EU also has its own goals and ideology and is heading towards federalism. It has a currency, flag, anthem and the goal of "ever closer union". Again, the UK won't be able to stop this, it can only escape on 23rd June. Cameron's supposed "deal" isn't binding and we can't rely on it happening. The EU does not listen to the UK and we're routinely outvoted on anything we disagree with.

The far right is increasing in the EU. All those who dislike the Tories and prefer the EU may find themselves less happy if the EU becomes a mostly far right organisation, constantly overruling what could by then be a left-wing government in the UK. We need to take the long-term view.

Stillovingmysleep
Fine you haven't bothered to apply for British Nationality in decades but go on a massive strop mentioning the words,:racist and divisive,deeply problematic.
All to stir up trouble and to try and garner some kind of sympathy vote for yourself.
That won't wash.
And still you deride a test for British Nationality once again.
You are basically laughing and insulting about a test for British Nationality.
Odd.

if the EU becomes a mostly far right organisation, constantly overruling what could by then be a left-wing government in the UK.

Not seeing the likelihood of a left-wing government in the UK any time soon... and it would become even more unlikely post Brexit, as the UK would need to liberalise its economy and lower its workforce costs to compete as a single country in a global world, outside of the protected common market.

Why is it odd to laugh about it Daisy? I have the right to as I found it funny. I generally laugh about any passionate / fanatical nationalism of any kind, not just the british one. To put it very simply, I have no particular investment in nations, but I do have a big investment in the community & people where I live.

And I don't see anyone going on any massive strops. 'Stirring up trouble' and 'gaining a sympathy vote for myself'? For what?! I'm not trying to be elected for anything, I'm a mum not a politician .

Or to put it another way, I am of the John Lennon persuasion :)

Stillovingmysleepmysleep
You tried to use an agenda
You failed
Accept it.