"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

No you can’t use the ladies in that situation sorry. I think most people would understand if you used the disabled ones though.
Same for you FIL no he definitely can’t go into the ladies and this is a genuine need for using the disabled toilets.
When your DD is a little older and doesn’t need help you could send her in alone and stand just outside the door of the ladies.

I am a woman and I would mind. Using the ladies because men can't clean up after themselves is not the answer. If it's too awful use the disabled loo if there's no-one else waiting and you're quick. Did you complain to Tesco's about the state of the loos? That would be a good starting place. Your Mum needs to be using the disabled loo with her disability ( never a reason for you to be in the women's with her).

You are a kind and lovely person no doubt.

Sadly "whereas the ones who can’t advocate, the children are the only ones who’s best interests aren’t considered" is, as I previously noted and you agreed, a lever to manipulate women, with kind and lovely people like yourself acting as the unintentional agents policing this through comments like "Says a lot about the posters in my view."

That is why you are getting pushback on both the "solution" of the women's toilets and the "solution" of the accessible toilets. No because other people are more "selfish" than you, but because we realise that "being reasonable" here, while on the face of it the kind and lovely thing to do, in reality just perpetuates the problem because as long as these men can solve their immediate problem by taking over other people's resources they will avoid the real issue which is men's behaviour and / or lack of appropriate family facities.

What exactly is a child, with their parent, vulnerable to? What exactly is going to happen to a toddler using the men's toilets with their dad? What safeguarding does the women's toilets provide in that scenario over the men's? You really need to spell it out.

This.

I mind.

I’m a rape and sexual assault survivor and I mind. I’m disabled. And I mind.

and once I would see a man in that situation I wouldn’t be able to advocate for myself at all.

I mind.

we have single sex spaces for a reason.

the op could use a bit of loo roll to wipe the seat, but did he need to do any more than that given that he had some form of smaller seat for his daughter to use? She wasn’t touching the actual toilet.

Or just get a home delivery. It’s Tesco he was in. Or click n collect. The cost per month is not excessive.

No. It's really not okay for a man to open the women's toilet toilet and shout in. Nor is it okay for him to enter. Ever.

Thankfully you don't speak for other women. Why would you not mind giving away our single sex spaces?? Insane.

Women like you eh.

One of the aspects of this that really annoys me is the extension of the already ridiculous queues in the ladies when dads won't take their children to the gents.

It was spelt out by another poster above - their words “cocks out” in the men’s urinals. I would prefer small children don’t see strangers genitals, irrespective of the child’s biological sex.

It's a 2 year old. They won't be harmed by someone using a urinal in their vicinity as they walk past with their dad. We're not talking about a 12 year old girl here. Dear me. Just face the child the other way.

Ok, how do you suggest men solve for that?

Campaign for family spaces?
Campaign for all-cubicle male toilets?
In the absence of the above, a new convention for fathers to call into the male toilets "bringing a kid through, is everyone decent?" and waits til he gets the ok?
Just appropriate the women's toilets for men with small children?

Let me guess.

Man is out with child and parent with dementia
Has issues with toilets
Ladies - how are you going to fix this?

I totally see your point but think there’s also a good dose of hypocrisy there - because the same is true of the woman who’s just had a man enter their space in the ladies, with the same two year old.

The same is not true at all. A grown man and a toddler and quite different.

The net result is the same. You’re more comfortable with the toddler being the one who’s put into discomfort, I’d prefer it was the grown woman. We just don’t agree.

It’s not a male only issue is it, it’s a child’s issue. I’ve shared my concerns as a mother.

The net result is not the same. The full grown man is more than capable of escorting a toddler safely into the toilet. Women are not safe from full grown men in their private spaces. Nor would the toddler be uncomfortable in the first place. It would be dad who was uncomfortable, and that is not women's problem to solve.

I refer you to my earlier comment about the weaponisation of "putting the children first" to control and marginalise women's legitimate expectations.

The problem you feel about "young children exposed to genitals" is specifcally a male problem. A problem for men taking yound childen or either sex into the male toilets, and a problem for slightly older male children who cannot use the women's while out with just their mother but you feel are still too young for the (apparent - I have no experience of this and my DH describes it differently) "cocks out" in the gents.

As a mother of course you are welcome to put your own voice and support behind men who want better support for men looking after children in public. No one would stop you doing that. It's a laudable thing to do.

What you are not welcome to do is emotionally blackmail other women for not stepping up to solve the men's problems for them. Men need to step up.

We are around unknown men and unknown woman all our lives when we’re out and about. I really don’t see the hype with toilets.

Bearing in mind you're commenting on my reply, it's clear you haven't read my original post. I stated that I would never dare use a women's toilet and I very obviously do respect a woman's space (here again for your ref: "To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence."). My original post was because my wife (a woman) said that she wouldn't mind me using the women's toilets, and I was interested to hear people's opinions on whether my opinion (I wouldn't dare go in) is the right one or not.

On a side note in answer to some other people's points:

• I clearly did get her through the men's toilet all fine and cleanly, and did state that I wiped down the seat etc and kept her off floor etc;
• I didn't try nor intend to try to take her to the women's toilet (see above and my previous messages);
• I do carry sanitiser on me with the portable folding loo seat;
• We do carry a bag of spare clothes in the car;
• It's wonderful that some of you are able to do home delivery, but it isn't always an option, and I went shopping on Saturday when a client had just paid me (I'm self-employed). I had to take my daughter as my wife was at work. Food needed to be bought.
• the Tesco's I use doesn't have a loo in the baby changing room;
• if I'm out at Tesco's with a full trolley and my 2 1/2 year old daughter says she needs a wee, I can't pack up and take her to a family friendly toileting facility;
• I did ask my daughter to wee before we left, but big Tesco's is 20 mins drive away and this all happened after an hour of shopping;
• no I can't send my 2 1/2 year old daughter into the women's toilet by herself to do her business including using the portable loo seat, cubicle doors, cleaning herself and loo (!!);
• no I'm not going to queue in Tobacco kiosk queue to speak to Customer Services to complain about the state of the toilets (men's dirty & disabled broken door) whilst holding my 2 1/2 year old daughter who needs a wee (Customer Services is in the Tobacco kiosk area). Tesco's (the company) should be getting flak for not keeping on top of the facilities;

There's been a lot of constructive comments, negative and positive, but there are so many comments where commenters clearly haven't read my original post or follow up reply, and simply comment on what they see first. Being my 1st post I've realised I've written in such a way that hasn't explained the situation adequately enough, and somehow I've made a bunch of people think I'm goading them; quite simply this wasn't my intention.

Thanks again to all those who have given constructive comments.

If you never had any intention of using the women's toilets, then what on earth was the point of this thread? Just to start a fight and pick holes in our opinions?

This one. If it’s so gross you can’t keep her safe/clean then use disabled but report to staff.

You say you’d never go into the women’s yet you ask “would you say it would be fair or right of me to go into the women’s toilet? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?” This suggests you were considering it and you’re asking us. You’ve also posed it in ethical dilemmas.

I didn't think I'd need to say this again, but just for you:

• I wouldn't dare go into a women's toilet (with my 2 1/2 year old daughter). But my wife (who is a woman) said she couldn't see a problem with it.

• Separately, at some stage soon I or my father will likely need to help my mother with the toilet whilst away from home (and if a disabled toilet wasn't available - see my second post).

So I wrote this post asking what people's opinions were. I didn't at any stage think someone might take this as an attempt to start a fight...