"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

It's in the framing.

"Hi website known internationally as one of the few places women are open about their real feelings about sharing private spaces with men who claim to be women! Here is an emotionally charged scenario where your boundaries would discomfort someone you claim to care about like another woman, a child or a disabled or vulnerable person. I look forward to seeing how you will square this circle, because I don't think your boundaries are valid."

FWIW I think it sucks that male provisions are so disgusting. Now more men are stepping up to parent their children, this should become an issue men start to recognize and do something about. That could be to campaign for family facilities or to apply social pressure on men to do better.

What is not ok is appropriating female facilities because it is an easier option than putting the work in as men.

Are kids routinely falling victim to some awful fate from slightly grubby loos? That's nonsense.
Feminists would expect a father to manage toileting his toddler without invading female spaces. A femist would expect men to take responsibility for their cleanliness of their own spaces. Not to use ours instead.
I don't think you know what feminism is.

Hmmm… or is he showing her that it’s ok to challenge societal norms and operate outside the constraints of the law and “normal” practices if in doing so she’s protecting her own health and wellbeing 🤔

You don’t speak for every feminist because your opinion differs to mine. As I explain to my six year old; we can have two opposing views and both still be right.

So you are fine with unknown men being alone in a toilet with your preteen daughter? OK then.

Of course it's that deep. If men are invited into female spaces, we no longer have female spaces

I consider myself a feminist but that means I would forego my own comfort in favour of a vulnerable child.

The basic principles of feminism are clear. You can have different views, but they are not feminist views.

Vulnerable to what exactly? What danger does a men's toilet with their parent pose?

No, he's teaching her that men can operate outside societies expectations and make women uncomfortable if it's more convenient for them.

There is a toilet available for the child. He'd just prefer it were cleaner. I've had to take children into lots of filthy ladies toilets when they were small. It's not an emergency.

It’s not by invitation though, it’s in a limited, exceptional circumstance. You can’t argue feminism, which represents an entire class of people, women, then say you’re not prepared to feel some personal discomfort which is proportional in the circumstances, for the benefit of a more vulnerable member of the same class of people, women, who is unable to advocate for themselves. That’s not feminism views its self centered views.

A frequent occurence eh? Sounds like your man gets kicks out of using the ladies'.

This is my thinking - I've used the accessible loo/ Babychange when I've found the female toilets unusable for ds (same age) for various reasons although this is obviously the exception as opposed to the rule and I will generally always take him into the ladies with me.

If the mens are that bad then report it. I've also had to use wipes/loo roll to do a quick clean up in the ladies before ds was able to use it.

Your dm should be using the accessible bathroom.

Lots of the women and girls who use public toilets don't identify as feminist, but they still feel uncomfortable with men in their facilities.

Irrespective of what principles people hold, men should stay out of the ladies facilities.

You didn’t see the toilets, OP did and as a parent he’s entitled to make decisions that are most suitable for his child.

What is even remotely exceptional about a small child needing the toilet?
And again, vulnerable to what exactly?

Use the disabled toilet and get your mum a radar key, she is entitled to use the disabled loo

Unless you’ve read the OP the exceptional part was the men’s toilets being rendered so unhygienic they weren’t fit for purpose at that moment in time.

Use the disabled loo wherever possible. I personally have absolutely no problem with men/women/children using the same facilities, but understand other people do.

And that is one of the oldest ways men have controlled women. As a Feminist it's important to recognise that.

So when a man or society presents women with a scenario that involves the woman giving something up (freedom, money, power, safety, opportunities, her voice, her own self-knowledge) to protect or support a vulnerable person who would otherwise suffer, the first question she should always ask is "is this really the only way, or is it just the easiest way for men?" and the second is "if this really is the only way today, what do we need to change so that it's not the only way next time?"

Because while she may still conclude she needs to do it, for our own and every other woman's sake we still have to raise the questions and make it visible this is happening. Don't through silent acquisence to allow men and society to pretend it's not hurting us so nothing needs to be changed.

THIS. Very simple.

Yes I agree, I’m capable of critical thinking, but am not so rigid in my beliefs that I believe there is never an exception.

With your mother, use the disabled toilet. You will need the extra space anyway - assisting an adult in a normal sized cubicle is a nightmare.

With your daughter, a "family" toilet or baby change while she is still tiny, if available. Or the gents. Yes, this requires some "mental load" - knowing venues which have family toilets, carrying supplies to make the gents usuable, etc - as you've already started by bringing her little toilet seat.

And campaign for more places to have "family" toilets available, and for men's toilets to be less disgusting!

Also with a child of opposite sex either use the toilets for your own sex, that's what I normally did when my son was small I never took him into the gents,
Or use the disabled toilet which often doubles as a baby change/ parent child loo.
It's a non issue on both counts really and not an ethical dilemma at all.

Yeah. IRL it's not a frequent occurrence. I've only encountered it once that I remember. I walked into the ladies, encountered a man and quite shocked, walked straight out again assuming I'd walked into the men's by mistake. He came out later with his daughter (who I hadn't spotted immediately, I was too focused on the man in a place I wasn't expecting him). I was surprised by the discomfort I felt and I didn't go back into the toilets until he had left.

But I still don't think I'd have risked a confrontation by telling him he wasn't welcome in there if asked. The toilets were in the lobby of a nice hotel, I'm sure the mens facilities weren't disgusting, so there was no excuse for his behaviour. I wouldn't want it to become a something men felt entitled to do.