White women, please be honest about this

[Lightsmother]

I’m a South Asian woman and genuinely feel white women are unable to fully connect with me in the same way they are with other white women. I don’t feel a genuine solidarity or sisterhood coming from them, regardless of how hard I try or attempt to fit in with their norms.

When you meet a non-white woman, do you really see through her race?

From school to university and now parenthood, it’s a difficult experience and I am constantly considering how each meeting and interaction would go if I were white.

I'm a white woman born in Britain and more than half of my close friends are non white from a wide range of backgrounds and ethnicities.

Culturally I think the British are quite reserved. This was brought home to me when I studied in the US where I thought I was making good efforts to make friends. After a few weeks one or two mentioned that they had found me pretty standoffish when I first arrived. I was pretty shocked by that since I thought I was being outgoing and friendly.... i was just not by American standards. ( they also had no insight into how I might feel having been dropped into this different culture on my own with no family support). I did find it easier to make friends then though as opposed to now as a 50 year old woman.

I went to a Catholic primary and secondary school. I think there were about 3 people who were non-white at my secondary, briefly we had 2 non-white people in our primary school.

The primary school my children attended was CofE and there were more non-white people. My children didn't even see colour until it was pointed out by that child that their skin was not white. My sons just had friends.

I was friendly with the parents of all my children's friends, I have a lovely friend who I wish I could see more of but she works and is very full on with her 4 children. She is Muslim and non-white.

I think people seek commonality, I have asked my friend a lot of questions about her religion because I am genuinely interested in her beliefs.

sorry to be clear as mentioned before, I’m British and was born here. Didn’t arrive as a child.

I reread your comments twice before seeing that! My eye saw the bold text, then jumped straight to the next line. Odd. Sorry, blame lockdown brain....

I live overseas in a non-european country that has many, many expats, mostly asian. Many of these Asians are british (passports, accents, education etc). While my DCs have mostly Asian friendship groups, as an adult I am not really welcome except a very superficial level. This has nothing to do with colour, but comes from the fact that, despite being british, they believe themselves to have different cultural values and expectations. Many of them also come from families that have been intertwined for generations.

DC is actually dating an indian boy, and while we are perfectly happy with the situation, he can't tell his family. I'm just waiting for the hammer to fall when they find out about the relationship.

Do you call that racism, pragmatism or just an innate fear of the unknown? It certainy isn't the fault of one nationality (british) being inherantly less tolerant or accepting of outsiders.

And race isn't the only factor. People will gravitate to others who have the same history, regional accent, friends or even the same handbag.

This exists everywhere.

I’m dual black/Israeli and have white friends, we connect well. My children are dual Nigerian and their friends are mainly black, could be the area we live in has a more diverse population.

I’m white and most of my friends are white. I live in an area where there isn’t as much ethnic diversity as some places. I had a very close friend growing up who is black - and when she had kids of her own her husband wanted to move to a “more black area“ - mainly for the kids.
I think I’m very liberal, anti fascist, anti racist, etc. I genuinely don’t think race or sexuality would have any bearing on my friendship with someone, but the vast majority of my friends are white and straight. I honestly believe this is simply who I’ve met in life and not a conscious or unconscious choice I’ve made. But I do think that racism and prejudice runs so deep in our world that we all need to question ourselves and call ourselves out whenever we can. Maybe it is something i need to look at in myself.

My kids have far more diverse friendship groups than me! Race, sexuality and identity.

My best friend is of Indian heritage and though this wasn't the case when we became friends, a practising Muslim. We get on great. I can't say I have lots of non-white friends because for one thing I don't have masses of friends anyway and for another thing I live in a predominantly white rural area. I work in a much more diverse area but that isn't really reflected in the adults in my workplace. I am really delighted to see the area I live becoming a bit more racially varied because I think it will enhance our community but I know there will be many more who will not really engage with non-white families. That says more about them.

@Mandalalorianna

I like people, I'm interested in other people. I'm irritatingly friendly! I'll make friends with anyone.

This is me, too.

I WILL be your friend. Whether you want me to or not. I have found very few people that I can't be friends with - no matter what their colour, race or creed - but I have to admit that I only have three very close friends, and they are all white, like myself - just because these were the only women I met when my kids were little, and I was in a new (predominantly white) area. We bonded over babies and are still a close group 40 years later.

I had close friends at work with whom I am still in sporadic contact , one of whom was black, and one of whom was Asian, but work opportunities took them to different parts of the world and we don't meet, though keep in vague contact. The same vague contact I have with white friends I worked with who have now moved away.

The netflix series on an Indian dating agency is fascinating by the way if anyone has not seen it. They seem to want a fair (ie not too dark) skin colour, matching families and of course caste and educational background etc. The British are one of the more tolerant of difference nations around although anyone who does not notice someone's sex, colour, how they speak, clothes must be blind as those are important things you cannot help but see. That does not mean you think - hate that person as they are male or could never get close to them because they are male or do not like that person as it is a woman or white or black. It just means you see what the differences are.

As the South African jew (if I can call her that) said above things like private schooling tend to bind people more than skin colour. I would have more in common with Rish Sunak (head boy of Winchester) than Labour's John Prescott (national treasure that he is....) My father and sibling were/are NHS consultants so the private school using similar (but Asian) doctor near me never mind my born British but Indian other neighbour who was at the same UK university as I was at the same time (we never met there) are closer to me - all our children went/go to fee paying schools than the white working class neighbours.

I’ll be honest, if I was having a celebration and put together a guest list of my dearest friends they would all be white. They wouldn’t all be heterosexual, there would be gay men, lesbian women and one trans woman but they ARE all white.

I live in a very white area unfortunately so I’ve rarely had the opportunity to get really friendly with people who aren’t white. I’m fairly friendly with the only non white person at work - we get on well and eat lunch together quite often but she’s not like any of my close friends, NOTHING to do with her colour at all, there are others I get on well with at work but I never invited any of them to my home.

One of DDs best friends is of Indian descent and before DD left home this friend was always in our house and so were her parents but they moved away - I miss them.

Where do you meet these women? Perhaps you move in circles that have prejudices?
I have friends from different races and don’t see it as a consideration at all. Sometime if someone’s first language isn’t English it can be hard work but it depends on the person.

Honest answer.

I agree that culture trumps colour when it comes to differences. I have a very good example of this. I used to live in SE Asia for many years. On the first day of a new school year, all the parents would meet in the classroom for an hour to chat and have a coffee, standing up. On average, there were usually around 18 different nationalities in a class of 26. By the end of the hour cliques had formed.

The largest clique would be the western clique where Aussie, NZ, Brit, Irish, American and Canadian would gather. What I found every time though was this didn't mean "white". Anyone who was from this country, even brought up somewhere else and then moved there, came with us and not joined the group of Indian, Pakistani or Chinese women. To me that showed that culture forms differences, not colour.

One of the things I miss about living abroad is the broad spectrum of friends I had and as a result the experiences I had from being included in their special occasions which are amazing. I used to have a really great friend who I met through my son who was Sikh and she was wonderful. I used to sit in her house and she'd make me chai masala and I loved her company. Her husband was absolutely lovely and he and my DH got on really well. One downside though was I used to be good friends with 3 other women, an Aussie, a German and a British Indian woman. We were great friends and supported each other through pregnancy and childbirth. The fact that our friend was of Indian original was nothing but an extra bonus to us as she was into everything we were, but also was able to add on with her extra cultural way of doing things. Her MIL came to live with her and gave her hell for hanging out with "white women" and she dropped us to only hang out with other British-Indians. So, OP it works both ways.

One of the things I hate about living back in Britain is I do not get the opportunity to meet non white friends. There is something about here that has gone badly wrong IMO. We are a multicultural country but we do not mix whereas when I lived in Singapore, they grumbled about each other, but as soon as there was a special occasion they were in the streets singing and dancing together as one homogenous group.

I think there is one massive miscommunication. People like the OP think we don't like them or want to hang out with them. We think they don't like or want to hang out with us. Personally I don't think anyone my age (50) and under gives a monkeys what colour anyone is or where they are from. I do think our media has a lot to answer for in bashing immigrants and people of certain cultures. Sometimes I find myself thinking a certain way after reading the news and then I go into my office where I work with absolutely lovely people from all kinds of cultures and I feel ashamed that I even thought that.

People mentioned this before... I'm also white and not British born, and I find I face a similar "othering" barrier from some white English women and men.

Contrary to what many like to repeat themselves, English people aren't particularly renowned worldwide for their love of foreigners. Polite? Yes. Welcoming? Sort of. Othering? You bet... (Note: it's not unique to the English, the same observation could be made, say, of Japanese people)

But then again, English people are also othering each others through the class system, through whatever football team they support, through their local accents, etc. Generally, I find the social norms around here are very rigid, in a "know your place" sort of way. So of course foreigners and brown-skinned people don't fit in existing social castes... They are given a caste of their own (like these little boxes you have to tick on all administration forms) and no, being pigeonholed and reduced to your cultural origin is not welcoming at all.

I find other English speaking people (e.g. Australians) tend to be more chilled, socially speaking, and easier to approach as a result. Whereas English people are more reserved (and careful not to step on each other's toes)

Living in London, most of my friends and female colleagues aren't what you would term "White British" but more of a mix. In fact, both of my female mentors from my first job (now close friends and still in regular touch) are Asian (one Korean, one Singaporean). It doesn't really make any difference to how I perceive them, having grown up quite internationally and gone to a very diverse school, but perhaps it ought to... What I mean by that is that sometimes they'll say something which highlights the cultural differences and I'll think, "Oh, that's a really interesting facet of your life and personality that really I should have asked you about before". And I remember naively being very upset chatting to a close colleague (who is black British) about her experiences of everyday racism. Because it was not something I experienced and I'd never really asked about it before then, I hadn't understood the extent of it till then. It still upsets me to think of what she said about how it affected her. So although I don't think it's affected my friendships, I've tried harder over the years to make an effort to be aware of people's cultural backgrounds and how they affect them.

@Xenia, your post is the one that resonates with me. For me, it is far more about culture/class. I am a white, working class woman. I also regularly play Bach at the piano. People assume an awful lot based on my class/clothing/accent/age I had children. I tend to feel more comfortable with working class people, but don’t always have much in common with them. Middle class people often make incorrect assumptions. I sometimes feel that I don’t fit in anywhere. Then I tell myself to get over it and try to focus on individual people and personalities rather than overanalysing the situation.

I think you’re right in thinking that white women might gravitate towards other white women. They might think that you are from a different culture and don’t click with them. They might just be racist. They might think that you could have an accent which is difficult to understand. There could be a load of different reasons.

I live in a very white area which had a handful of asian pupils in each school year - and possibly only two black students in the entire school. I was in a friendship group with one Pakistani Muslim girl and one Indian Hindu girl, but the white and asian students mostly stuck together in separate groups. Knowing the school I went to, I don’t doubt that the asian pupils regularly experienced racist comments and behaviour throughout school. I hadn’t really noticed the divide because I was completely naive about all of this, but my friends clearly felt very uncomfortable with it and noticed it. They would get comments along the lines of being traitors, and my lighter skin would be laughed at. It was very strange and I think partly fuelled by the sexist behaviour of some of the male asian pupils. They clearly saw white girls as worthless and ‘slags’, as they would have put it.

Both of those friends now seem to socialise with people of only the same race/culture. My Muslim friend came from a very strict religious family and had an arranged marriage at a young age. I remember how shocked I was and how unhappy she seemed. Then she just went off the radar and we never saw her again. My Hindu friend didn’t have strict parents, but does mainly have friends from a similar background. Despite being British and having always lived here, she was definitely raised within Indian culture. Our families were very different and I suppose we couldn’t really relate to each other in the way that she now does with her friendship group.

I was also raised in a heavily religious family... think along the lines of fundamentalist Christianity. I am the only person in my family who is now non-religious. That is a divide that I really feel. I have many opposing opinions to my parents and my sister, and I struggle with that at times. Particularly as I am very close to them and my sister will often come to me for advice. I have to be very mindful of her beliefs and there are lots of topics I just don’t raise or bite my tongue on. A lot of my childhood friends were from church and are also still religious, so it’s another way in which I don’t fit in, or have friends I can’t fully be myself with.

I suppose what I’m saying is that there are lots of different ways of belonging to different groups. I wouldn’t seek out a close friendship with a religious person, as I already have a life full of religious people I can’t really be open with. It’s hard to generalise, but I would tend to judge each person on their own merits... skin colour wouldn’t be a thing I would think about, but I typically feel more comfortable around people who are down to earth and not reserved. And I’ve mostly found that in working class people. I’m not an expert on this though, because I don’t think I’ve actually made a close friend since childhood. I do feel pretty lonely at times.

I occasionally feel a slight anxiety about whether I'm doing something wrong- asking questions or not asking questions for example. Both can be perceived as racist/insensitive/othering.

This.

I remember at secondary school in the 90s being friends with lots of the Asian girls. It was great in year 7,8 and 9. Until years 10 and 11 when their cultural expectations made it difficult to continue. We were always talking about boys and had a certain level of freedom which they unfortunately did not. This set us off onto different paths and our friendships faded, maybe on their part because they couldn’t have the freedom we seemingly had.

As an adult, I mix with many different nationalities, races and cultures. One of my very good friends is Pakistani but culturally she was raised by very open minded liberal parents who gave her the choice to select which elements of their culture and religion she wanted in her life so we share experiences and opinions. She is someone who will always be in my life no matter what happens.

Culture and religious expectation does play a large role in how people mix. It’s quite complex once you strip back the realities of multiculturalism. It’s not black and white that’s for sure.

This has really made me think. I have close friends of many different backgrounds. I have different types of friendships with different people. My absolute closest friends are those who have been in my life since I was primary aged and our upbringings/backgrounds are very similar. I can identify with them on a level I just don’t with anyone else. However, I spend a lot of time with my Nigerian friend who I have now known for about 15 years. We had our children together, have been at each other’s weddings, meet regularly for coffee, shop together and genuinely enjoy each other’s company. I love her dearly and can’t imagine life without her. But I guess, if I’m really honest, I don’t have that connection that I have with my absolute closest friends. I don’t think it’s anything to do with ethnicity but the fact that we don’t ‘get’ each other in the same way my longest standing friends do. I think it’s to do with life experiences and identifying with each other on a deeper level. I’d still class her as a very close friend and I hope she feels the same about me.

I'm friendly with everyone, but don't have any non-white friends. I live in a very white area so don't meet anyone who isn't white.

I occasionally feel a slight anxiety about whether I'm doing something wrong- asking questions or not asking questions for example. Both can be perceived as racist/insensitive/othering.*

Majority of people love talking about their heritage etc, I’ve got Turkish Muslim friends who invite me over for their Islamic festivals. I cook them Nigerian food.
It’s a shame people are worried they’ll cause offence

I am white but not UK born.

I think what you are describing probably applies to me too. I ‘click’ best with others who have a mixed background. I think itks because without a deep common cultural background I often say things in ways they find offensive, and I don’t pick up on their subtle cues.

People with a more international upbringing are more able to bridge the cultural gap ime.

@PotatoBasher

I am white - born and raised in UK but now living in Australia. I find a lot of friends here are 'foreigners'. Australians have their own mates from school etc.It has taken me a long time (7/8years) before I started to make true friendships.

On the other hand I had a friend at work who was Malaysian Chinese. We caught up a lot outside of work, with our kids etc. I introduced her to another Malaysian Chinese friend and they became bosom buddies over shared interests/ mutual friends from Malaysia etc and now I never see either of them. I guess they were more comfortable with one another than with me? Sad as person 1 and I were good friends.

I'm not white and I reckon this is the best answer you're going to get on this thread. The old adage, "birds of a feather flock together," is true. OTOH, heritage/ethnicity is just one of the things that people look for when they're trying to spot similarities - consciously or not. We're all just looking for things we have in common.

One of my best friends is Asian, another one from the Caribbean, but we have a lot of things in common. They are great.

I struggle with an accent sometimes. Find it harder to connect to, as the slight delay in understanding seems to interfere with the easy, comfortable batting backwards and forwards of conversation. That goes for white Europeans as well as BAME.