White women, please be honest about this

[Lightsmother]

I’m a South Asian woman and genuinely feel white women are unable to fully connect with me in the same way they are with other white women. I don’t feel a genuine solidarity or sisterhood coming from them, regardless of how hard I try or attempt to fit in with their norms.

When you meet a non-white woman, do you really see through her race?

From school to university and now parenthood, it’s a difficult experience and I am constantly considering how each meeting and interaction would go if I were white.

Skin colour, background, even sex would make no difference to me. What’s important is culture - do I have anything in common with the person, do we have similar interests, shared attitudes and experiences? Of course I’m friendly with people who are different to me, but I’m closest with people who I can relate to. If OP’s behaviours and attitudes are very difference from the average white British woman then that would explain why she has difficulty connecting.

If I wanted to indulge a luxury, Xenia, it would asking a specialist to research my family tree. It's such fun finding it all out. It would be great to have a 'Who do you think you are experience' with all the researchers the BBC find.

Hi Daffodilbulb

I'm really sad to hear about your negative experiences which are really worrying. What you say contributes to shaping my opinion and makes me realise the truth that there is still very much a problem with some ignorant people alienating and mistreating people based on their skin colour or perceptions about their racial heritage. I feel lucky to live in multi-cultural SE London where I feel we value the mix of different cultures and just see people as people - or so I think.

I am sure there are many posters on this forum who would have liked to defend you and speak out about such treatment, when it happened. It's enough to put you off the convention of office friendships, if people are going to be favoured or pushed out. Perhaps this indicates the shallow posturing and manoeuvring behind some traditions of workplace 'friendships'. It would be better to set out to be friends with everyone and to get on with the work.

I think the posters express it perfectly when they say that they are friends with people who are good and caring. I think you can enjoy rewarding friendships with caring people even when hobbies and lifestyle are not the same.

I also think that companies should have mechanisms in place to address and prevent the sort of bullying being described.

I feel so sad you have to think like this. I'm white and would feel a sisterhood/normal connection regardless of race.

I don't really think about people's skin colour. Partly, I think, because I have that face blindness thing (where people don't notice / can't remember the details of people's faces). DH was laughing at me a few days ago because I'd not noticed that a blended family on some TV programme was mixed heritage - the father & one child were one ethnicity, the mother & another child were white. It never occurred to me. DD has been watching this programme since the start of lockdown! I'd be a crap witness if I saw a crime. I have the same problem with remembering white people.

I've been friends with lots of people, of various skin colours, from various ethnic backgrounds. I find it quite hurtful that someone could automatically assume that I would be unfriendly or uninterested because I'm white. Would you be unfriendly because I'm disabled?

I think people are generally attracted (in a platonic sense) to people they share things in common with or that they recognise in other people. For example, one of my good friends is black and I'm white and we met at work. We have much more in common than I have with nearly all my white colleagues. We have a similar outlook on life, the same values, similar sense of humour. The things we have in common outweigh our differences which are are mostly superficial.

@popcornlover
This is a friendly country OP

Eesh, I'm a white UK woman myself and I don't presume to say this is a friendly country - I've never experienced racism first hand, why would I? I wouldn't see it.
Just because I find it a friendly country being white, doesn't mean I can say it's a friendly country for anyone who isn't!
Seen far too much insiduous, casual racism on here over the years to see that isn't really the case - there's a lot of it out there and it isn't all friendly.
OP has presumably seen that for herself.

When you meet a non-white woman, do you really see through her race?

I take people for who they are, if you're nice or not.
Nothing to do with your race.
Maybe have some cultural differences, but that's fine - we're all different and I love learning about new cultures (not meant to sound patronising or anything so hope it doesn't come across that way)
So yes, basically I'll make friends with people who are nice lol

I work with white British women, but I do not have a single friend that is white and British. We have a great time as colleagues, work together well, have laughs and respect for each other. However, our relationship does not go any further than work and work/related outings. To be honest, I feel we are all relieved and happy with this arrangement.

I fully realise that we simply don’t have that much in common, so any potential friendship would be boring and uncomfortable. I am white, so the colour of the skin has nothing to do with all this.

I agree. There’s a barrier. I am from an ethnic minority group, a woman of colour and I have never found it easy to fit in with White Women. I have a couple of white women friends but any new friends made through children have been plain difficult. It’s almost like they refuse to get close. They also assume I am a stereo typical coloured person when I am not and when I speak, and I not only speak well but make sense and connect it’s almost like they can’t believe my mindset! I was with a very close friend for a picnic and we walked in a lovely park. Whenever I go down the same path I have to move out of the walker and cyclists way, but this time with my white friend all the cyclists and walkers moved out of our way, they also said thank you and you could really tell the different way she was treated. It hurts. You feel like you don’t belong / but the fact is you do. 2nd generation here - no ties or links to any other country. As far as I’m concerned I’m refusing to spend time with any white people who are going to make me feel uncomfortable.

Unfortunately I agree with the OP, being born here (London) and being of South Asian descent, plus living in a predominantly white middle class area. In many baby groups, I was ignored, no matter how much chat I tried to initiate.
At the school gates, despite knowing each other for the same amount of time, similar education levels, the British white mums just stuck together.
I have so tried, sorting out social get togethers, birthday events which they do come to but I have come to the painful realisation that they are friends with each other but not me. I am not included in many things.
However the two white but not British mums are definitely friends.
I have just decided, it is what it is.
DC are mixed race and look white so I guess they wont have my problems.

I further think that the white women who subconsciously do not wish to be friends with you will not be posting here.

Subconscious racism is a real thing. Whether people admit to it or not. Having BAME friends doesn't mean that you can't still be racist. My grandad is extremely racist but his racist views don't seem to apply to me because I'm his grandchild and he loves me

I went to a baby group once and there was a semi circle of white mothers all chatting in 2 groups and a black woman with her child on the other side. A massive gap either side of her and she looked like she was nearly in tears. Not one of those woman thought to include her or sit near her and after being ignored like that why would she have wanted to or felt comfortable enough to initiate a conversation?

One of my best friends is an Asian Muslim woman and the first day I met her at uni she had also been completely excluded by the white students. As people came in and introduced themselves the group got bigger and everyone was chatting together. When she came in and said hello to everyone people responded but didn't ask her name the way they had with everyone else and went back to the conversation without including her or looking at her. What other reason could this have been other than she looked different to them and they had made their own immediate assumptions?

Not to say everyone is subconsciously racist but it's a lot more common than you might feel comfortable to think. Until people are willing to address it the issue of racism will continue

Have white and non-white friends and friends from different cultures. It is a non-issue for me. I did go to an (English) school that had many foreign children (some I am still friends with) so a "multi-cultural" friendship group is my norm anyway.

@popcornlover A Friendly Nation?

1. Nah. Nope. No
2. you don't see Nationalities BUT The British are Friendly. EH?
3. OP is British therefore Friendly as you are by virtue of being British.

But you didn't mean Nationalities or Nations or British
White Women are Friendly you should have tried harder to be like White Women, being ungrateful and not ignoring White Womens awkwardness is offensive. You are bad"

Did you think replacing "White" with "British" removed the Racism from that textbook example of racism?
Friendly Nation my arse

I lived in a certain city for over a decade and there were areas I hated due to the vitriolic bollocks certain groups of White People spouted as regular conversation.
Absolutely they looked down on Asian women and their lives, but they would be civil to their faces and considered themselves friends, sending their kids out together but with a warning not to repeat that joke or word in front of 'them'.
If that's inconvenient to your view of the world, your worldview is wrong

Those exclusions mentioned above are unacceptable. It is very very rude for anyone to leave a new mother out like that. Whoever the mother is being left out on the sidelines surely one of the other mothers could have come over and asked them over? I don't think as I live in London it is like that as most people a re not white in my borough. of course there will be racism, sexism etc all over but if most people are not white the dynamic changes in that kind of situation unless the one white mother wants to sit on her own in a corner. it is just rude and not kind.

All of us of any colour in those situations or at a party or other group where one person is on their own should try to help, go over, talk to the person on their own etc.

@popcornlover come on now, it is not a friendly nation.

I agree this is not a friendly nation. It is friendly on the surface, but that is about it. There is a lot of mistrust and fear of anyone that looks or acts differently.

However, while racism and xenophobia does seem to play a role, I think that ultimately people just want to be comfortable in their own group. They may see bringing a visible minority into the friendship group as a risky move.

I already mentioned that I do not have any white British friends. If any one if them ever expressed an interest to be a friend, I would certainly give it a go, but I do not chase after people who want nothing to do with me because of the way I look. I would rather be alone.

Fortunately, I make long term, strong friendships with women from other cultures. For example, I made an amazing friend from Poland at my new job. She was in my home having dinner only weeks after we had met and it was great 🙂. She also met my entire family. To me, this is normal.

Sadly, anyone can be racist, not just 'white women'. The moment you set yourself apart from others who look as if they might be from a different race, you are being racist. As soon as you treat people differently because of how they look, you are being racist.

I was once asked by a black woman friend whether black men could be racist towards black women. When she told me her story, I said yes, absolutely they can.

@lilmishap

I lived in a certain city for over a decade and there were areas I hated due to the vitriolic bollocks certain groups of White People spouted as regular conversation. Absolutely they looked down on Asian women and their lives, but they would be civil to their faces and considered themselves friends, sending their kids out together but with a warning not to repeat that joke or word in front of 'them'. If that's inconvenient to your view of the world, your worldview is wrong

@lilmishap, I am living in one of those places. The hypocrisy was staggering tbh. Nice to the faces of those women, going to see them to ask for favours (such as 'can we borough a nice traditional dress for my dd?') and then using that as a dressing up frock to go to an asian wedding whilst judging and looking down on the people that were getting martied.

All that explained and started with 'I am not racit but...'

Needless to say, as a foreigners, I don't have any friends there, even after 20 years :(

There are some horrifying examples being given of exclusion, and all of us need to stand up to this.

For me, it helps to have the attitude of treating everybody well and showing friendliness. I am a little suspicious of big groups of 'friends' being formed because they are a clique or sub-set of the whole group and why not have the whole group - e.g. mums at the nursery as friends?

I have tended to like to join organisations in my spare time, contributing to community newsletters, neighbourhood watch or being a school governor. My interactions have been about a purpose. I do have friends of course, for companionship, but prefer 1-1 when socialising with them. I'm quite good at taking in the detail of what people are telling me and like it when we give each other advice. Groups just dilute the listening and understanding process. Good for going to a concert or something, but that is bonhomie rather than friendship.
Any group which has a tendency to be excluding would be something I would avoid.

As I mentioned before, seeing all of us as a probable mixture of heritages means that I don't categorise people. I think that people who have experienced intermittent racism but who have persisted with following their goals are strong, stoical and positive and so I admire them and would be more inclined to be their friend. I tend to be feel most warmly about those who are kind to my son, who has autism and who has always been quite challenging in his behaviours. Kind people who run cafes and who kindly accommodate his requests and foibles mean more to me than, well, even family members who don't.

This forum is Mumsnet, so the majority who read posts will be mums, and this, for me, is a sufficiently common bond of shared emotions to use as a base for friendship. Equally, friendships with people who don't have kids are based on sharing a common aim to be nice to people and to make the community a better place.

I agree this is not a friendly nation. It is friendly on the surface, but that is about it. There is a lot of mistrust and fear of anyone that looks or acts differently

I've never experienced it that way. It's been absolutely fine for us. We've seen over the decades however that those who set themselves apart mentally from the start will only ever see in others what they want to see. It also very, very much depends in where you live.

YouNustDoYou
I am happy you’ve had a more positive experience😊.
I have read the previous posts, and many posters did want to be included and were trying hard to fit in. It still didn’t happen.
I agree that where you live also makes a huge difference.

YouJustDoYou
What is your ethnic origin and how long and where in the UK do you live?

You are basically saying it is the fault of the non white people for not being included.

I think what we need is some new TV comedy to make fun of all these ridiculous racially-excluding snobs. The super-fit cyclists merrily saving the planet, but actually being unkind to one of their brother or sister human beings. The mums who are all cuddling and caring ( but probably secretly competitive about whose baby is speaking or reading first) but being nasty to some mums. It's a a sad joke.