White women, please be honest about this

[Lightsmother]

I’m a South Asian woman and genuinely feel white women are unable to fully connect with me in the same way they are with other white women. I don’t feel a genuine solidarity or sisterhood coming from them, regardless of how hard I try or attempt to fit in with their norms.

When you meet a non-white woman, do you really see through her race?

From school to university and now parenthood, it’s a difficult experience and I am constantly considering how each meeting and interaction would go if I were white.

I am a white woman from one part of the uk living in another part of the uk and find it hard to make close friends with ‘locals’. Part of this is down to the fact that they don’t need new friends - they have grown up with an extended network of friends, family, family friends and most of their friends are part of that network that is hard to break into. They have shared history and understanding with them they don’t have with me. Most of my friends are other non-locals, many from other countries.

I am white, living in a diverse area. I have noticed at baby groups etc that the white women tend to group together somewhat. So I don't think it's necessarily just you.

Several of my closest friends are black and asian, and while there are differences between us, we 'get' each other. I feel closer to and more similar to them than most of my white working class brexit supporting relatives.
I think culture and beliefs are key.

@FippertyGibbett

I would be concerned that I might say or do something that was taken the wrong way so I would talk to you and be friendly, but I don’t think I’d consider being friends. You have to be so careful these days that you are not accused of being something you’re not, due to a simple misunderstanding.

So you refuse to be friends with people who aren’t white?

I’m white naturalised immigrant. (i.e. I speak with a British accent and have a British passport, but my childhood and family are abroad).

I connect best with other naturalised immigrants, of all different skin colours.

I feel like you that it’s difficult to connect on a
deeper level with some people - but I think that’s to do with them having a certain ‘security’ around them - of being surrounded by the community they were born into and assuming entitlement to the same future for their kids - that just doesn’t ring true with my life experience.

I’m not white and as the above poster says, white women cliques never seemed interested in knowing me. Found Baby groups and school run places the worst for it.

It's the religion, I would make assumptions you are muslim or hindu. - And it would be the religion, not the race, for anyone, for example, a staunch Baptist, or a staunch Roman Catholic.
I'm not religious and in my eyes I see women held down by patriarchal rules due to the religion they choose. So I would feel I didn't have a great deal in common with them (and I have discovered I have little in common with them).
My DSis is religious. There's a lot we just don't discuss.

@alittlehelp

I am white, living in a diverse area. I have noticed at baby groups etc that the white women tend to group together somewhat. So I don't think it's necessarily just you.

But is that race or culture? And is the just the white women grouping together or do other groups do too? Whenever I have been in culturally mixed environments most people have tended to move towards other people with similar understanding and backgrounds to themselves.

Where I live, I can honestly say that the majority of people in my town ,and county tbh ,are white.
Growing up , I remember just one black family and one Asian family in our town but I would'nt have treated anyone differently at all and would'nt now either ofcourse.

I am white but not originally from the UK. IME it’s more cultural- I find it hard to make British friends, at mum groups, at school etc. There seems to be a secret code that I don’t understand. I have lots of friends who are also from European (and didn’t grow up
In the Uk) countries and most of them feel similar.

I don’t think anybody’s trying to “throw shade” at you, just trying to understand what the issue is.

You’ve got lots and lots of replies saying we feel as close to non-white friends as to white friends.

One reply from somebody so worried about being perceived as racist that they don’t dare ask questions/fully open up with somebody non-white.

We’re just trying to answer you honestly and work our what the issue is.

@20Broken yes the baby group was hard for me - I won’t go to one with DC2 because of it tbh.

@MistressMounthaven there are as many secular/atheist ethnic minorities as there are among white people, so I wouldn’t assume anything about one’s religion.

Yes, in my immediate circle I have a friend of Indian decent and one of Chinese decent. Couldn’t careless. Except when it comes to food. Particularly when their parents are cooking!

I’m of Punjabi Indian heritage, born in England. I lived in a mostly white area and went to a mostly white school. I’m still friends with a lot of people I went to school with. My closest friends are all white. My husband is mixed race and part white. It has honestly never occurred to me that they see me differently because of the colour of my skin. I also come from a huge Indian family and spend time with them regularly. I speak Punjabi, attend cultural events and am very immersed in my Indian culture. Never been an issue with my friends. They love being involved in my culture, as I do in theirs. We respect each other, learnt about each other’s culture, and embraced it.

I think sometimes people’s perceptions and prejudgements

"And to everyone saying maybe it’s you, my aim was to open a conversation, not throw shade. I would appreciate if that was respected on this thread."

I hope you didn't get that from my answer. Definitely not what I meant at all.

But for example, my husband's culture is really closed. I have been 'the foreign friend' so often and I just kind of got sick of it at some point because after a while, I felt like people only ask me about 'foreign' stuff. It has made me a bit wary of people from his culture. I try to be open, but it is hard when you feel like people are just waiting to ask you for your foreign perspective.

I wonder if sometimes white people have made you feel like that too?

When you meet a non-white woman, do you really see through her race?

Interesting way of phrasing that OP, when I was younger I would have said ‘yes’ (the old “I don’t see race I see people” colourblind approach) but now I’m older, have travelled a lot, learnt a lot more about different cultures, and racism etc, I’d say no, because pretending you don’t notice the colour of someone’s skin is a bit daft surely? My only friendship from school which has lasted to adulthood is with a British Indian woman, second gen to UK, we have similar outlooks and approaches to life, enjoy similar things, I wouldn’t say I “see through” her race - it’s an inherent part of her, links to her family, cultural background, is integral to how she experiences the world (as in how the world reacts to her) so I don’t really understand it as something to ‘see through’ any more than the fact that she’s a woman. It’s part of her and who she is.

Some (many?) people just don’t make friends easily as adults. Sure I’ll chat to anyone if the situation requires it and am friendly to people but I very rarely form new relationships where the term ‘sisterhood’ would be appropriate, not since my mid 20s really, but race isn’t the deciding factor on that, more that I’m an adult, I have a partner, family, a small handful of friendships and I’m pretty much set. Perhaps the white women you’re not connecting with don’t connect with anyone much regardless of their race.

Forgive me if this is very rude but “I am constantly considering how each meeting and interaction would go if I were white.” doesn’t sound like a very healthy or useful thought pattern, it’s like always seething at casual everyday sexism, doesn’t actually change anything and just puts me in a bad mood. Maybe this is something that other women of colour would be better placed to talk about though, as white people will never really understand obviously.

Well this is literally just random people who have rocked up to a baby group so I don't know how they'd know too much about each other's cultures (unless they have made assumptions about culture based on race).

I am white British. I used to work with a woman who was Chinese. At the time we were both working mothers of young children in the same profession and so had a lot in common. I really liked her and I’m pretty sure she liked me.

But there was a bit of a barrier. Because I was very aware that our cultures were different and I didn’t want to stomp all over that. So when she asked me my opinion on a particular situation I would say “well - obviously your culture and background is very different to mine but from a British point of view that would be very inappropriate” where as I wanted to say “No! No! No! Your in-laws are awful awful people and your husband is a pathetic doormat for ditching you and fucking off to China for over a year to care for his mid fifties healthy parents who have randomly decided they want him to move in and support them and leaving you with no practical, emotional or financial support to raise your joint toddler child.”

OP, I agree this is a thing. I've lived and worked all over and it's definitely not limited to the UK.

I'm in a small hobby group with two BAME women, both British-born. I have noticed the white women have bonded effortlessly, while the BAME women (black, south asian) are always on the sidelines of conversations. The white women then tend to go over the top when trying to include them, which compounds the weirdness.

I'm not going to pretend I don't have bias because we all do (yes, even you 'I don't see colour!!' folks), but I enjoy and respect both of these women and so am confused as to why it's happened.

@Mumoftwoyoungkids

I am white British. I used to work with a woman who was Chinese. At the time we were both working mothers of young children in the same profession and so had a lot in common. I really liked her and I’m pretty sure she liked me.

But there was a bit of a barrier. Because I was very aware that our cultures were different and I didn’t want to stomp all over that. So when she asked me my opinion on a particular situation I would say “well - obviously your culture and background is very different to mine but from a British point of view that would be very inappropriate” where as I wanted to say “No! No! No! Your in-laws are awful awful people and your husband is a pathetic doormat for ditching you and fucking off to China for over a year to care for his mid fifties healthy parents who have randomly decided they want him to move in and support them and leaving you with no practical, emotional or financial support to raise your joint toddler child.”

I think this is a big part of the cultural differences for me. I've read some dilemmas that people from different cultures have experienced and there is a lot of behaviour that is normal in other cultures that would be completely unacceptable to me. I'm sure it goes both ways.

Once upon a time if you'd asked me if I'd marry anyone from any ethnic group I'd have said yes. Now I'm older I realise that these cultural norms do make a difference.

OP - I know you've asked for responses from White women only, but just to give you my perspective....

I am a mixed race late 20s woman (black, Mediterranean and Asian) and have had various white friends over the years. I will also add that I am culturally British. Some of these friendships remain as long term (like 10 years plus) loving ones and some have died a death due to their behaviours/thoughts/subconscious biases towards people who aren't white which I couldn't stand by and ignore.

However, I do also have a range of mixed race/black/Asian close friends also (also 10 yrs plus friendships) and I feel like it is in some ways a different dynamic as when I discuss incidents of low level/nuanced racism they truly do get it in terms of their own experiences - so I kind of understand where you're coming from. Although, I will say one of my closest friends of 10 yrs plus is a white, gay male and he does truly get it as well as he has experienced the hidden discrimination but from a different perspective.

So, it's a tricky one as I think sometimes it can feel different with friends of different colours as their own experiences can either clash/synchronise with yours which obviously had a big impact on the dynamic.

Having worked in the nhs I can honestly say I have worked with and I am friends with people from most cultures. I don’t tend to notice any difference mainly because we all have something in common.

I’m white and I struggle to connect with some white women.

I am drawn to kindness and a sense of fun

@alittlehelp

Well this is literally just random people who have rocked up to a baby group so I don't know how they'd know too much about each other's cultures (unless they have made assumptions about culture based on race).

Of course you make assumptions on culture from race, but also from clothing, attitude, how people greet on another etc, but also from if you already know them and if you are born and bred in an area then you are likely to know others who have been too and gravitate to them. Most areas have a ‘settled population’ who have been there for generations and if you didn’t go to school with them then your sister might have or their mum might work with your mum. When you meet other people you look for something familiar about them and are comforted by that.

Then, of course, you speak to people. And at that point you start to identify other similarities on which to build a relationship.

I'm going to be very honest here, and it's something it pains me to admit, but as you've laid open your vulnerabilities you deserve the same.

There are two things which mean that in a room full of strangers I will gravitate towards white women.

The first is names... I struggle to remember names if I meet more than one person at a time, but I have a much better chance of being able to commit a recognisable name to memory. If a woman's appearance indicates she's likely to have a name which isn't very common in the UK, I fear I'm going to embarrass myself trying to learn it.

For example, I was recently at a conference with 5 women from our Indian office. They all introduced themselves to me. As soon as they'd finished saying their names I'd already forgotten them. I feel really rude asking people to repeat their names and saying it back to them like I'm poking fun at the foreigner... I'm really not. But it might look like that. So instead I just avoided spending much time with them individually, because I didn't know their names.

And that's on me, not their fault in any way, I'm the crappy one, who struggles enough with social situations without an additional challenge.

The other is language, and if someone's first language isn't English, although this isn't a skin colour issue, because a white woman is just as likely not to be native English speaking. But you mentioned being from a different culture so perhaps your first language is different. Anyway, I find it difficult to follow a conversation if the other person is struggling with English, my mind wanders at the best of times (again, my fault, no criticism of the other person), so when there are lots of pauses while the person hunts for the right word, I disengage. So if I hear a strong accent during my first meeting with someone, I might not seek them out later to spend more time talking to them.

These are both reflections of my privilege and flaws, but also my fears about looking bad to others. They are in no way an indication that I think those people aren't potentially lovely and would be great to know as friends.