What do we owe our elders?

[petronella23]

We see this topic come up in problems time and time again on mumsnet and I've seen in play out in various forms in my own (large) family and friends' families.

How much responsibility do we have for our elders?

The situation is usually this in some form:

• The elders. Increasing care needs that they're often naive about or in denial of. Feel they shouldn't have to use professional services (be that carers or taxi drivers or anything in between) when they have family who could help them.

• The burdened sibling. Usually the nearest geographically. Very often female. Resentful of the amount of their own lives and time they have to sacrifice in service of the elders. Resentful of siblings who have opted out. Feeling that if they don't do what they do, no one will and elders will suffer.

• The opted out sibling(s). Often geographically further away, or with busy job/young children which serve as both a reason and excuse for their lack of involvement. Take the attitude that 'burdened sibling chooses to do what they do.'

I can see the points of view of both the burdened and the opted out, but wondered what others feel about the dilemma(s) involved.

I think if you love someone and have a good relationship with them you want to help. HOWEVER, that does not mean you do it to the detriment of your own family or job. There are a lot of sandwich generations now who are having to help elderly parents whilst at the same time juggle full time jobs and young children. Its impossible to do it all.

So, I dont think it's about owing anyone, I think it's about deciding on what level of help is manageable for you and what level is not and sticking firm to that boundary. Thats not selfish- it's sensible self care. I have seen people end up having nervous breakdowns by trying to be everything to everyone and that benefits noone as the person then ends up not being able to help anyone at all or gets ill and then needs help themselves.

I dont agree with the concept of "owing" someone help- if your parents were abusive for example then you owe them absolutely nothing.

Therefore, for me having helped my dad when he got dementia it was about what I could realistically manage, what I couldn't ,and if I couldn't manage it then I outsourced it to someone else (paid carers). I know he wasn't particularly happy about that but I am an only child and I simply could not do it all- it just wasn't physically possible for me with young kids of my own and a demanding job.

It’s an interesting question and very subjective. We don’t live in the UK, we both have siblings living close to ageing parents back ‘home’ .

My parents often tell me that I owe them nothing, that my children and I come before them; they’d be outraged if, for example, we choose to move closer just to be on hand to help them out as they age. They put us, and more specifically their grandchildren and the opportunities that are available to them from living overseas, first. For them, it all goes one way. TBH I don’t know if they will maintain this attitude should something happen - they are both in excellent health and no care needs atm.

FIL on the other hand doesn’t understand why we haven’t moved back ‘home’ already to help him out now that he’s on his own (MIL is already in a nursing home). He firmly believes that children should look after their parents as they age. I don’t think it’s so much that he feels we owe it to him, which implies some kind of debt to be repaid, more that’s he feels he responsibility to look after him should pass to his children.

So two completely different viewpoints there.

The 3 people in this triangle is nearly spot on. I disagree about the opted out sibling though. Im general dogsbody most of the time and don’t have much down time. I have 2 young children who aren’t at school and annual leave / weekends obviously involves them. My husband and l just about have the time and energy to meet their needs and ours, never mind another up to 4 adults wants (assuming all of our parents were alive and haven’t re-married). Plus logistically we can’t afford much chikdcare so if we aren’t working then we are parenting solo. If drive 300 miles up the road to deal with a crisis on my childcare day, then my husband would need to take leave from work as we both work full time. I suppose the difference is l don’t expect my brother who lives equally as far from my mother as me, to do more than me just because he has no children. He’s busy too and has his own life

@biscuitsnow l agree precedents and boundaries need to be set. Burn out with this kind of thing is very common

I have already put my life on hold twice to care for my mum in times of ill health crises. It was tough going from daughter to 'carer' and I found a new sympathy for those who do it more often. Dm is on her own and I'm aware needs will only increase but she is doing all she can to future proof now (handrails, being cautious, trying to get fitter etc). She has been the most wonderful mum to me so it is a pleasure to help her when she needs it but with my own baby in tow I'm aware it will be tricky. My MIL is keen to move closer, no doubt in the hope I'll step in to do the same for her when her time of need comes but if she continues with her nasty comments, interfering ways and inability to stop trying to control me then I won't be so willing. It's not easy. I think you get out of life what you put in and how you treated those around you counts tremendously.

I did it willingly for my parents and my in-laws. But set boundaries. So we did their gardens til the end, some cleaning (but they had cleaners too), took them out twice a week, meals here, did their shopping and made sure finances were sorted til the end. My mum had dementia so that was hard but she got to stay and die at home and during long hospital stays I visited her at least once a day.

I have two siblings, a sister who is older and did nothing ever for my parents (we were fine with that, she has her own problems and lives in another country) and a disabled sibling who need care themselves. DH has siblings who had no contact with their parents but were quick to turn up once probate was sorted.

I feel the balance was right. It was pretty exhausting at the time and no matter how much I did for everyone it never seemed enough, but with hindsight it was enough.

Context on which owed / not owed depends: She is my very elderly widowed mother, in a care home, no other family at all. Something of a difficult relationship, I left home at 18 and felt uncared-for by her at that time and in some important ways as a child. She was often emotionally unavailable. I have been independent since but she gave me money for a house deposit (she has plenty of money). It has been quite draining to support her since my father died, mainly because of her pessimistic, cynical and self-centred outlook (she came from a dysfunctional family). I am single and in my late 50s with good friends.

Owed: Overseeing her care, advocating on her behalf where she can’t, making decisions about her care where where she can’t.

Some companionship, interaction, just being there to visit regularly. Ensuring there are other people who do this too (paid).

Owed because she has literally no-one else who could fulfil this role, who knows her, can give her her personhood and who is on her side. And because she is my family but that doesn’t mean there are no boundaries to what’s owed.

Not owed: Giving my life away to hers, in the form of personal care (which I don’t want to do), being dominated by her wants, or to the serious detriment of my own work or ability to earn (it has been impacted) or being able to make major choices about my own life such as where I live, who / what I centre my life around and how I spend my life. Very particularly not to the detriment of my own mental health.

Solutions to problems she caused or won’t engage with or compromise on.

What she doesn’t owe me:

A single penny.

Resolutions or closures.

Being the fantasy mother I used to want.

Mainly these owed / not owed categories are my own, discovered through experience - I don't follow any particular cultural-social traditions on this. I am well aware that things are expected of women and daughters that are not of men and sons though.

Oh my the terms you have chosen are very loaded.

I'm the 'burdened' sibling and I live the furthest away. What my siblings do is up to them. I choose to help out and my siblings don't. It's just the way it is. I get on with them brilliantly and I don't resent them
at all.
I could choose not to help out too if I wanted. It's a CHOICE. Unless the siblings have found a way to force you to help out then using the term 'burdened' is not accurate.

My Mother is leaving her estate to all her children equally as I think she should. I suspect quite a few 'burdened' siblings are after a bigger cut.

I have seen friends having breakdowns trying to do everything. In my opinion I find their elderly relatives incredibly selfish. They know how hard it will be yet don’t care. I’ve witnessed some of the abuse aimed at the family members who have stopped because they cannot cope.

Planning for the future as far as I am concerned shouldn’t just be about finances. We all age and we know there’s the chance we will need help. We should plan for this just in case rather than hoping and crossing fingers that someone else will do it.

Ive told my own DC’s that I am not going to be a burden for them. Here is my plan, and changes
i make at various times. I shall again be getting an independent advocate like I did when I was seriously ill when the time comes.

I read this thread earlier without commenting however it's really hit home for me.

I am the sibling closest to home; the others are too far away to do anything family related. They have commented that I choose to take on the "burden" (I would NEVER call it a burden, but it does come with emotional stress) but then when things get missed when I step back, that is then perceived as my fault.

I think the reality is that once you are far enough removed you don't have the same concept of what is potentially required in terms of support/care.

There is also an opt out sibling. We've already accepted that they will do nothing to support parents but will no doubt by the chief mourners come a funeral.

Well, yes, but I chose these terms because this is often why the situation is a source of tension and dissatisfaction. Situations like yours - where everyone is happy with their lot - aren't really what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about what to do when people do feel burdened, when they don't feel that just not doing it is a choice (because if they did do that then people they love will be unhappy and/or neglected), and where the 'opt out' people are only able to do so happily because they know the 'burdened' will step up.

I'm one of the elders you're talking about. Sadly (for her, as it happens) my daughter is an only, happily partnered but no children, or likely hood of them.

We live (daughter, her lovely partner and me) in our house. I need care. I outsource and pay for help I need as far as I can. So I have a cleaner and I pay someone to do my laundry. I've also got all the aids it's possible to help me (stair lift, walk in shower with shower chair, a walker downstairs and upstairs, a mobility scooter ect ect)

So I try to do everything I can to lighten the load on my daughter and her partner. But, there are still things they do for me. For instance I cannot use public transport, so if I want to go somewhere, my daughter takes me.

I cannot safely cook very much so they mainly do the cooking.

I hope I take away as much of the burden of living with me as I can.

So, in our home, it's to each according to their needs, from each according to their means.

I don't believe my daughter "owes" me care, let alone her partner. I don't think any person owes anything they are not able to give willingly. And I do believe that people need to be prepared to help themselves as far as they are able.

I'm talking about what to do when people do feel burdened, when they don't feel that just not doing it is a choice (because if they did do that then people they love will be unhappy and/or neglected), and where the 'opt out' people are only able to do so happily because they know the 'burdened' will step up.

———————————-

They might not feel it, but It’s always a choice. It might be a really hard choice but it’s a choice nonetheless. SIL chooses to skivvy for my FIL. He asks her to, she does it because she finds it very hard to say no and upset anyone. But it’s still a choice: she’s choosing the (for her) easy route of not having to deal with FILs anger / sadness / disappointment.

DH is male, overseas, and by your definition is the ‘opt-out’ sibling. He has urged his sister time and time again to stop cleaning etc for FIL and offered to help find an alternative: FIL could easily afford a cleaner, he isn’t ill at all and he could look after himself. But she won’t step back. She’s choosing not to because she isn’t able to set boundaries, to say ‘no I’m not going to do that, let’s do this instead’ for fear of upsetting anyone 🙄.

so does the fact that my SIL is crap at setting boundaries mean that DH has to do what she’s doing, and sacrifice himself too? Otherwise he’s ‘opting out’ ?

I think I'm the burdened one in this scenario, although I've now got boundaries in place! But the geographical distance - neither my sibling or I can 'pop' round to DM. Mine is a minimum 5 hours round trip, theirs probably around 10 hours. That means that even something as simple as transport to a hospital appointment can't be done without an overnight stay. So I can't do it. I take on the emotional load more and the admin side. Neither of us does the practical stuff.

But I see it in the wider context. There's a lot of older people alive now who wouldn't once have been, because medical care has got much better. That often means living for years with increasing frailty and eventually dying of something like dementia, whereas once their heart would have carried them off a couple of decades earlier.

Women working is different now. Previous generations of my family the youngest sister didn't marry and took care of parents. My direct ancestors often retired in their 50s and looked after parents in their 70s. I'm looking at retiring at not far off 70 which means I'm sandwiched between elderly parents, young child and a full time job. Previous generations of women in my family had part-time pin money type jobs, work didn't follow them home, and it was all very close by. My DM used to shop daily for an elderly relative in her lunch hour and drop it round! In contrast I grab lunch at work when I can, manage a large team, commute and often work in the evenings.

Less community support available. There used to be long stay geriatric wards and cottage hospitals. Those have almost entirely gone. Elderly people used to stay in hospital for weeks after an operation, now they're out the next day. Better for infection control and getting them moving again, but someone has to care for them! Meals on wheels isn't available everywhere and is more likely to be a microwave ready meal delivered weekly than a freshly prepared hot meal dropped off by someone local who will check in and chat. It's almost impossible to get a GP to do a home visit. District nurses don't just drop in. Local hospitals have closed/been amalgamated meaning longer journeys to hospital, public transport that doesn't go there directly.

There's a lot of older people alive now who wouldn't once have been, because medical care has got much better. That often means living for years with increasing frailty and eventually dying of something like dementia, whereas once their heart would have carried them off a couple of decades earlier.

heart attack or pneumonia or flu.

DH and I are mid 50s. All four of our parents are alive and kicking in their late 70s/early to mid 80s. None of them have any illness that’s likely to carry them off soon.

By contrast, by the same age both of my mums parents were dead and my dad only had his mum left. Same for DH: his dad was orphaned young, and his mums dad died in his early 60s, so he only had one grandparent growing up.

My DS, currently 16, may well get to 26 and have 2 parents plus some grandparents still going. Demographically, that is not a good scenario.

so does the fact that my SIL is crap at setting boundaries mean that DH has to do what she’s doing, and sacrifice himself too? Otherwise he’s ‘opting out’ ?
but couldn’t DH set up a cleaner? Or is his boundary that he doesn’t get involved at all? Might not be the case with you but my experience is that the sibling further away engages less and is slower to realise what the actual situation and need is.

@EmotionalBlackmail agree with every point you raise re: what has changed.

it grinds my gears the way distance is used as an excuse. As the closest (1 hour away) sibling I cop for the lot yet 50% or more of what I do is done remotely and it’s mental energy as much as physical. Setting up services, gp communications etc etc thinking what could and should
be done. it’s often the closEST sibling that picks up irrespective of how close they actually are! I’m sure my siblings friends and in-laws think I live a street away. My sibling hasn’t scaled back to reflect distance so much as opted out totally based on a good cover story. They can choose what they do or don’t do. Equally I can choose whether I continue a relationship with them and I’ve chosen not to. At least this way the stress is less and I get back the hour or so a week that used to be spent speaking to them about their holidays/home improvements/gardening.

Well you will never know if your parents just say this …..I say it to my eldest …..….he’s lived overseas for 12 years…..I certainly wouldn’t be ‘outraged’ if he moved home…..I would be delighted…they likely miss you dreadfully

An approach has to be realistic. As long as poss in own home is a good thing. Understanding that a child can’t always be a full time carer.

The elders must be encouraged to be sensible with money if they have any. There’s no excuses for ruining your chances of a comfortable later life with equity release.

Children uprooting parents away from friends to conveniently situated assisted living far away from where they lived will usually end badly.Confusion, loneliness etc.

My mum nursed my gran for years. When I think back it wasn’t great for either of them. She’d initially lived with my aunt but my aunts husband felt it was “too much”. My mother was on her knees caring for my gran, working as well as trying to bring up a family and unfortunately her own children suffered. It wasn’t pretty and I was really traumatised after my gran died. I was 11 and found her dead. As the years went on I couldn’t forgive my mother for not being there as I was growing up as well as never recognising that I had been 11 years old and found my grandmother dead. We ended up not being in contact with each other, I never went to her funeral.

I would never want my children having to care for me or feeling obliged to do so. I didn’t have children thinking “oh they’ll be my carers when I’m old”. I’ve made that perfectly clear to them. They have their own children, careers and lives and as much as they love me as do them I wouldn’t want them putting their lives on hold caring for me.

@Kitkat1523 while I appreciate what you’re saying I’m sure @rickyrickygrimes knows their parents and their FIL much better than you. A lot of parents (like me) do actually feel their children owe them nothing and are happy to see their children living fabulous lives. Personally I never say something to children I don’t mean.

My parents gave me and my sisters a wonderful childhood. 2 of my sisters still lived in the same town to my parents. My Dad died quite young when I was a teen. My Mum was always very capable until she got into her early 80's and her health started to decline. My 2 sisters who lived in the same down had always visited once a week each started to go twice a week each then one of them went every day. Me and my two sisters who lived further away me 200 miles and another sister 80 miles and my other sister overseas did phone several times each week and in her later years face timed her. Mum was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer when she was 86. She was given up to 4 months to live. At that point all 5 sisters moved back into Mum's house and we cared for her between us with 2 sisters working a shift either day or night and 1 sister getting a day off each in turn. I have up my job to care for Mum. I didn't mind because I knew I'd easily get another job after she'd died. One of my sisters got a 6 month sabbatical. One sister just used her holiday and as she only worked part time this worked for her. Mum only lived 6 1/2 weeks. None of us regretted spending those 6 1/2 weeks with Mum. I wouldn't have missed that previous time with Mum for anything. It was a special time and it bonded us sisters together even more tightly. None of us felt obligated to care for Mum. We all wanted to spend as much time as possible with her before she died. After saying this I wouldn't want my DC to look after me. I'd arrange care at home as long as I possibly could, then I'd go into a home. I just really hope I die of a quick heart attack like Dad and not a painful and gruesome pancreatic cancer like Mum.

@Chrisaldridge in theory DH could set up a cleaner. We’ve tried already, talking with FIL about how much pressure SIL is under and suggesting ways that he could help himself rather than have her do the donkey work for him. But as long as she keeps saying yes, he’ll keep accepting the help. And we’ve told SIL over and over that there are no expectations on our part at all that she does this for FIL, that we help her find a solution, that we would speak to FIL if she can’t but we don’t get anywhere 🤷‍♀️ she says she feels too guilty to stop, that he wouldn’t like strangers in the house, what if the cleaner steals something then it’ll be her fault etc 🤷‍♀️.

We did manage to get him to accept a temporary carer after he had hip op, but that was a battle and he really didn’t see why SIL couldn’t drop everything to care for him (works full time and has her own family). And she would have done it rather than say no!

so in that context, it’s really hard for DH to just ‘set up a cleaner’ from a distance. He certainly wouldn’t get any thanks from either of them, and unless they are on board it’s not going to work.

@Kitkat1523 when I said they would be outraged, I meant if they thought we were upending our lives to move back closer to them, specifically to care for them. They probably would be happy for us to be closer just to see more of us, but they would hate the idea that we were doing it ‘for their sake’.

Maybe I’ll be back on here in 5/10 years complaining about my parents and their unreasonable expectations- anything’s possible! But at the moment, they don’t put any expectations on us at all - quite the opposite tbh.

we’re not that far away btw (France). Both my cousins moved to Oz, leaving my disabled uncle to be cared for by my (increasingly infirm) aunt. That’s hard, and getting harder as they can’t travel any more, and my cousins rarely / never visit.

I think @BinaryDot's post is perfect.

My mum was a wonderful mother to me. I could have given up my job and had her to live wih me plus additional carers after she had her stroke. Ds was doing A levels at hat time and we'd lost dh so would have been on benefits. We'd have had to move house somehow.

She still wouldn't have been remotely safe, due to her severe cognitive change and continued mobility. She'd have been off down the road every day (she got out of the hospital frequently). The house would have become a secure ward, with huge impact in ds. So a nursing home it was and has been ever since. I don't feel that I owed her my entire life and existence in that sense. But I know people do do it.

My widowed dm lived 60 miles away. Happy in her own home, not the cleanest house ever but perfectly liveable.

As she became older we (me & siblings) paid for a gardener a few hours a week.
Organised a farm foods delivery
A home hairdresser
An emergency call button
A weekly taxi ride to a pensioner's club.
A visiting chiropodist
One of us visited once a week.

They all had our phone numbers and would call if they were worried. She became ill at 86 and died at 87, but was in her own home until the last three weeks.

To be fair to dm, she kept herself pretty fit and active. Helped in a charity shop until she was 84. Walked everywhere. Didn't smoke or drink, and kept her weight down. Reasonable diet. She took care of herself and that meant her needs were less so we were able to cope between us. Shared responsibility.

I'm 60 and determined I'll do the same. to lighten the load for my ds (only child). I hope fervently that it is in my control.

But your husband COULD just do it. Not acting is simply just going with the flow and assuming that his sister is the brains and the brawn. Why does anything have to go through her to ‘help her find a solution’? How about DH puts something in place and then she stops? It’s not just about doing, it’s about owning the problem.

… or if the cleaner is really a non-starter I’d suggest asking his sister what else can be done, checking in on father’s current capability (things go downhill quite quickly so he might not just be a lazy wotsit) and being grateful for what she does.

As the non-absent sibling it’s the feeling of being overwhelmed with responsibilities and having to do all the thinking as well as the doing that gets me down. The best way I can describe is being made CEO of health, safety, entertainment, property and wellbeing whilst being unaware that I’d applied for that position. What’s happened to me, and I see this with others, is that the absent sibling uses the difficulty with one thing as a hook to hang a hat on, opting out of being a proactive and equal partner in looking out for a parent.

sorry @rickyrickygrimes you could accuse me of projecting and I probably am, but I wouldn’t want anyone to get the stage I am at where it was easier to break off a relationship and just get on with it on my own as my sibling brings little to my parents life and nothing but additional problems to mine.