What do we owe our elders?

[petronella23]

We see this topic come up in problems time and time again on mumsnet and I've seen in play out in various forms in my own (large) family and friends' families.

How much responsibility do we have for our elders?

The situation is usually this in some form:

• The elders. Increasing care needs that they're often naive about or in denial of. Feel they shouldn't have to use professional services (be that carers or taxi drivers or anything in between) when they have family who could help them.

• The burdened sibling. Usually the nearest geographically. Very often female. Resentful of the amount of their own lives and time they have to sacrifice in service of the elders. Resentful of siblings who have opted out. Feeling that if they don't do what they do, no one will and elders will suffer.

• The opted out sibling(s). Often geographically further away, or with busy job/young children which serve as both a reason and excuse for their lack of involvement. Take the attitude that 'burdened sibling chooses to do what they do.'

I can see the points of view of both the burdened and the opted out, but wondered what others feel about the dilemma(s) involved.

I agree with the feeling of being overwhelmed as the "burdened" sibling. I am very jealous of my sibling who lives abroad who does visit as often as they can and does a large amount when here, but can also leave everything behind when they return to their now home country. I can't do that. I can't even go on holiday for a week without feeling guilty and the burden of being on call 24/7 does get very wearing. The amount of help social services/the NHS provides is very, very minimal. The unpalatable truth is that if I didn't step in to help our parents quality of life would suffer. Their organisational skills are not what they were and although it is easy to say they should organise additional care / cleaner etc the reality is that it is me that has to set up and monitor it and then step in if a carer or cleaner is ill/fails to turn up for a shift.

We have just jumped into this 8 days ago.
Luckily myself, brother and patents are all on the same page.

We are putting effort into sorting things out, but ongoing neither sibling is to do more than they feel they can cope with or detriment to other responsibilities. If need be care is bought in, parents move, or go into a care home.

You cannot help a professional martyr / people pleaser. They need to have their own epiphany. Wonder if she had trauma in her childhood that makes her believe that she has to self sacrifice/ do things for others to be worth anything. I'm not having a go at her, she obviously feels she cannot step back for whatever reason.

I did everything for my mum in the two years before she died of dementia. My sister lives in another country, so I didn't expect her to help, but she was always supportive and understanding over the phone of everything we sorted for mum. The will was left 50/50 and I sorted selling the house and probate. Kept strict accounts and sent her detailed accounts of everything each month. It took a year to sell and was very stressful. When I sent the money through at the end of probate she told me to check my bank balance. She had sent £50,000 to me in thanks for what I had done for mum. I was and still am bowled over by the gesture. She didn't have to do that and it certainly made me feel appreciated.

I hear you @Chrisaldridge, and if you’re guilty of projecting then I am guilty of being somewhat sanctimonious and idealistic, having never been tested in this respect - I’ve just observed DHs family as they deal with it.

DSIL is probably not a good example, I think she’s quite extreme in being a pathological people pleaser.

courage to you all.

I live 5 hours away from LO but sibling lives near by . I do everything I can to share the responsibility ( I won’t say burden) basically because I love and care about both of them. Thankfully kids are grown and DH and work are understanding. It’s not always easy but I couldn’t rest if I just walked away.

What Do Children Owe Their Parents? by Daniel Mackler (YouTube) - an interesting perspective.

My parents are late 60s, early 70s and in good health. They were good parents and id like to help them as they age. However, my sister and I both live hundreds of miles away and have done so for the best part of 20 years now.

My parents looked after my nan as much as they could, but she was 2 mins down the road. Made sense for my parents to do it cos they lived nearest and they'd both retired, whereas the other siblings lived further away and had younger kids.

The thing I don't get is that I've asked them to move closer to us, but they've said no. Fair enough, it's their choice. But they saw how much support my nan needed and I don't want them to struggle and have to outsource everything as they age!

One of my kids is 17 and DS is in high school, so hopefully will both be over 18 by the time my parents need help. I'd hate to think of them needing us but for their whole family to be too far away to be of any use! Wish they weren't so stubborn tbh. Makes sense for them to move while in good health because a crisis move would be no good for anyone.

They don’t have many years of good health left. They want to make the most of them. These years are very precious to them. They don’t want to spend them in a place they don’t want to live, waiting to get old and incapable.

I have a pathological need to chip in to threads where I see comments like this:

‘Made sense for my parents to do it cos they lived nearest and they'd both retired, whereas the other siblings lived further away and had younger kids’

’ I'd hate to think of them needing us but for their whole family to be too far away to be of any use!‘

there is a tonne of help you can give at a distance and, even if you were next door, you wouldn’t necessarily have time or be qualified to deliver in person care.

If you are concerned, do research now on POA, estate planning. Look at care agencies in the area. Compile a list of traders and keep it up to date. Join local Facebook pages and Nextdoor. Find out about how to deliver medicine, get access to parents GP, register as an unpaid carer. keep an eye on the house and see what repairs will be coming up next. Chat to the neighbours when you are there… the list goes on and on. What seems to happen is that ‘too far’ is brandished like a get out of gaol card in Monopoly. You’ve made an important first step though as you have found ‘elderly parents’! Mine of information here.

I am the "opted out" sibling.
My DM actually doesn't need care right now, just wants company and has put my siblings in the role of her life partner (my DF is dead).
I can see what she's doing, I don't think it's healthy and I'm not interested in being her friend. If my siblings can't say no to unreasonable demands and put up boundaries, that's on them.
And she doesn't even have any care needs right now. I think she's already far too demanding

I sound very harsh and I don't mean to but:
I had a different childhood to them
They had emotional support from my mum
She has done/said something that has really caused me to take a huge step back a few years ago

The challenge with some parents well mine is that what you do is expected, especially if you are a parentified or surrogate spouse child. When my father was dying I collected my mum , we went to sit with him ( he was unconscious) she got bored after a bit and I took her home , as I left her house she told me that if he died in the night she didn’t want me phoning to tell her - she obviously only saw support one way, me to her. I then went back to the home and was there when he died. After he died I cleared all his stuff out of the home and then from the house they shared and got the death certificate and organised the funeral for her. She had nothing to do. Didn’t even register that I was doing this stuff and was also grieving . She wasn’t grief stricken I must stress they hated each other!

I think one of the main issues with being the 'burdened' one is the ultimate responsibility. When the opt-out siblings don't want to do something, they can just say 'sorry, no. Not selfish, but boundaries' and the buck is back with the burdened one. If they say no, the state doesn't provide and the elder ultimately suffers.

I say all this as someone around 10 years (hopefully) from being in this dynamic, and already laying the groundwork to be an 'opt-out'. I know it's selfish but so be it. Choose guilt over resentment etc.

I'm the only child in this situation. My mother wanted company after she got divorced. She had me running round as a teen, doing everything for her, and keeping her company, but didn't need any actual care. I did it to avoid her moods. Now she's older and needs care, and I'm expected to give up my life to put her first. I could be doing this for decades. I get pressure from her and from other relatives. No matter how much I do, its never good enough, according to the other relatives. Its very lonely, nobody in the family supports me. I would love to take a little step back, but the abuse I'd get makes me too scared to

DH was the burdened sibling, and by extension I was the burdened in law.
It was very very hard to maintain the balance.

If I said ‘sorry, no can do’ I not only had repeated phone calls from MIL, I had SIL calling to remonstrate.

I did step back from time to time, but watching DH being pulled this way abd that was just horrendous.

i view his siblings in a very different light these days.

@RainingAgain3 that's really tough
Have you considered that they're never going to be happy no matter what you do, so you might as well suffer their disapproval while doing just as much as suits you? If you know what I mean.

As they say here - you can't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm

Are you having counselling?

Neither of my parents expected me to care for them when they needed it, beyond doing shopping, helping paying bills online etc.

I'm an only child, and couldn't have cared for them as well as dealt with a full time job. My late DM went into care, initially she wasn't happy about it (deluding herself that she could manage home alone) but when it came time she accepted it and seemed happy enough. My late DF (parents divorced) moved into an apartment attached to a care home so he was independant, but there was someone there if needed, and at the end of his life - he went downhill quite quickly - I was so thankful he had been sensible enough to move there.

I read so many posts on MN where elderly parents are living at home but require a lot of care from family, and it sounds so difficult. I'm so grateful that mine let me be a daughter and not a carer.

I willingly looked after my mum before she died but I won’t be looking after my MIL and my husband works ft so has limited time anyway . When my mum was in hospital we had a visiting rota ( 3 sisters) although I occasionally did extra when she called me in with an issue ( nursing background) . We all did our bit even the sister that lives a bit further away .

You are 100% right. I did get some counselling, once as I wasn't coping because I felt like my life was stuck. But it opened my eyes to a lot of the problems coming from my Mum and how I was being treated. She's not an easy woman to live with, and if it was a relationship, the way She's been treating me over the years would be considered abuse (but not physical)

Relative knows this, but says "Mum wasn't brought up like that, and it must've been her ex made her like that" 🙄 (That ex was my Dad, so I lived with him too, and i didn't turn out like that). And "it's a pity of her with her health. And your mother is the most important person in the world. Life is short, family comes 1st".

I'd counselling a 2nd time because I was struggling so much with how I was being treated, and how it made me feel. I felt like a bad person and like I mustn't be a good enough daughter, and like a failure as a human being for not having this 'best friend' relationship with my Mum that my relative kept going on about. She was lucky enough to have that, but doesn't mean we all do.

It's so hard when relatives you were close to all your life will turn their back if you do something reasonable that they don't approve of 🙄

@RainingAgain3 I wonder if your relatives are putting pressure on you to run after your mum because they don't want to do so? I would think about putting boundaries in place because as your mum gets older the demands are likely to increase.

*Neither of my parents expected me to care for them when they needed it, beyond doing shopping, helping paying bills online etc.

I'm an only child, and couldn't have cared for them as well as dealt with a full time job*

@IloveAslan sounds like the balance was right for you but I did want to point out that you are understating what you did - if your parents needed shopping and bills etc to carry on living, you WERE a carer. I say this not be a pedant but because it can be useful for others to recognise that they ARE a carer and personal care is only a subset of caring.

Minimising commitment, responsibility, energy and effort isn’t helpful and once you realise you are a carer you can get some support, recognition and help. I don’t necessarily mean financial but saying to my employer, that I am a carer means they understand my commitments. Seeing being a carer as being about personal care/ an all or nothing thing is another good route for those absent siblings too take no responsibility as they are too far to be hands on. you can be a carer even if you are in Oz and your parent in the UK. It doesn’t mean you have to do personal care or even be hands on.

We’ve got more than one adult child and we/ they joke that when we are really old we will take it in turns to live with them. In reality by 70/75 we fully intend ,God willing , to move to a nice retirement flat next to a care home in the area we live in,still close to family , friends , shops and transport but with help on hand if needed. fingers crossed and touch wood that that will be enough. Your parents were very sensible in my opinion.

Well I certainly didn't look upon it as being a carer. More something I could do to thank my DM for providing a hot meal for me a couple of times a week, as well as both she and my DF paying for meals out for me and the many other generous things they did. A bit of shopping and paying bills online took little time and effort and barely impacted on my life at all so I don't see how I was minimising commitment, responsibility, energy and effort, and I most certainly didn't want support, recognition, or help.

It's a strange world you inhabit where providing a small amount of help is classed as being a carer.

Yes, there were, and I will be forever grateful.

I was intending to be supportive and provide some useful information as many people find themselves drawn slowly in to caring without realising that they are a carer. The definition the nhs and other charities use of when someone is a carer is broadly that the other person cannot cope without that support be that paying bills or shopping. If that wasn’t your situation then I’m sorry I misunderstood your original post. Your comment re: ‘it’s a strange world you inhabit’ is quite belittling though. This is normally a supportive forum where people share helpful information but I will think twice about doing that in future.