Advice please: Elderly mil cannot carry on living with me

[joystir59]

Sorry if this is a bit long:
My DW died in July. Her mum had been living with us for some years at this point. There is another daughter who is very hands off and lives approx 200 miles away
Mil is 87, poor sight, poor hearing, bad mobility, not able to manage her own affairs or communicate without extensive help, struggles to use the shower. I support her with shopping, laundry and overseeing things like GP reviews. She hasn't left the house for years. She is reclusive and uncooperative, will not grant her surviving daughter LPA, hasn't written a will, doesn't like anyone coming in to provide care or support e.g. if I want to go away. She is scared of being left alone at night and not able to leave the house unaided.
I have decided that she cannot continue to live here and I'm not prepared to become her carer and give up my freedom. I also don't think her needs are being met, and this will get worse. I want her to go into a nursing or residential home near her other daughter so daughter can oversee her care.
I understand she will need a Care Needs Assessment. Does anyone know if this can be done here where she now lives but then be used by the local authority in her daughter's area? Does anyone know how difficult it is to get an assessment that a residential home is needed?).
Any advice on any aspect of the process gratefully received.

Brilliant! So pleased for you.

Oh well done, Joystir!

Well done OP.

Can't believe some of the comments on here....

@Bargebill19

By village I mean a cohort of individuals as found in a care home. Not in the community.

Community care has its place. But not in the OPs situation.

Sorry for 'spinning' what you put in your post. I agree we need 'villages' which are therapeutic communities designed for the needs of those who are unable to live independently b/c of declining physical and cognitive abilities. Speaking as if providing care is just the normal and decent thing to do is a gross mischaracterization of the issue, insulting to those needing care and those who end up providing it by default.

That's good news.
Make sure you let them see how close to carer breakdown you are. (The magic phrase that can open doors)
It takes more than one person to do the caring in these situations, best in teams, on a rota, in a suitable building. No-one should have to sacrifice their own life and sanity caring for a relative...and especially not for an in-law.
And sorry for your loss, OP. .

I'm so glad that you have an assessment booked OP. My heart goes out to you faced with such a sad and difficult situation. My condolences on your loss x

As for the mil not contributing, she'd be eligible for housing benefit. Don't be daft. You clearly know nothing about caring fir an old person but are very quick to judge the OP.

Good luck!
I have not read all the posts but my advice would be as it sounds like you are

• be clear you are feeling under strain and at breaking point. If they offer you a ‘carers assessment’ take it as it’s an opportunity to focus on the impact of caring on you, and asks if you are willing and able to continue. So you can get it documented that you are not.
• if my understanding is correct that she has no stake in your property and it is wholly yours then state she can no longer stay eg. Because you will be away travelling etc etc

In theory you may want to consider selling or downsizing and would have every right to

From a local authority point of view it would be unusual to go straight from no carers coming in to a permanent residential placement. Normally they’d want to see that everything had been tried to keep someone at home and she would need to have personal care needs that can’t be met at home and be at risk without care. The tipping point for residential care would normally be if someone is not safe to left alone in between carer calls eg due to cognitive impairment or risk of falls, and/or they need care overnight (not just because they’re anxious, but actually need hands on care or are at risk of falling, wandering etc).

In this case she doesn’t really have a home of her own as such and you are entitled to say she can’t remain there so that might make the conclusion of residential care more likely. Another option could be renting a sheltered housing flat near her daughter and having carers in.

If she lacks capacity to consent to her care arrangements, in the absence of an LPA they will have to act in her best interests which will include looking at her wishes and feelings past and present, consulting with family, and they should consider what is ‘least restrictive’ (normally staying at home with carers is considered less restrictive than a care home). She could have carers coming in without ‘agreeing to it’ first if she lacks capacity although may then not accept care from them of course.
They will only consider a capacity assessment if she actual has signs of a cognitive impairment eg. dementia, you always start by presuming capacity.

Your local authority can assess and then place her in a home in another area near her daughter. There just could be an issue with this if care homes in the daughter’s area are more expensive.

An alternative route would be self funding for a couple of weeks as respite in a care home near her daughter, then decide to remain there permanently, and then approach the local authority there to take over funding, and you could say she is not able to return to you.

Good luck!

Well done

Good luck with the assessment and well done on getting the ball rolling

It sounds as though MIL may actually be relieved and want to co-operate after all. The social worker as a neutral professional person who is skilled in this area can probably get further with discussion about care options than you can so you have done her a big favour in making her address this reality and have nothing to feel guilty for. As you say this discussion had to happen at some point.

Social care will look into AA as part of the assessment so no need for you to apply.

If she does have savings over 23,500 then she will need to self fund and this will in fact give her more choice and control and make everything go faster (might be why daughter is not keen though as she will be 'spending her inheritance')

If she has no formal mental illness it's likely she will be deemed to have capacity to make choices but she cannot choose to stay in your house without your permission so do make that very clear to the social worker that it isn't an option.

It does seem from your latest posts as though you might possibly be willing for her to stay after all if she accepted regular care and eg went for respite whilst you go away? Do just have a good think and be very clear what outcome you want and what you are willing to provide. It's fine if the answer to that is nothing. They are likely to ask you.

Even if she is self funding they should support her to find a suitable residential care placement or housing plus a care package.

Extra sheltered is a nice option short of residential care for many older people where you have your own flat in a complex but with an on site care team so you can pull a buzzer 24-7 and someone will come. Often there are communal meals etc. Ordinary sheltered housing isn't much support at all these days. Wardens are all off site now and they are for 'independent living'

I hope it goes well and that a good solution is found for everyone. In due course she may even thank you for this.

I don’t have anything useful not add except that I’m sorry to hear you’re in such a difficult situation. You’re absolutely correct that the situation is no longer tenable and your late DW would understand that I’m sure. I hope you get this sorted but it would appear as others have said that putting a deadline on it will be the best way to get things moving. Hope you get it sorted so that you can grieve for your dw.

You poor thing! She sounds utterly selfish (or was, when she had capacity). Just because you're elderly, or have MH issues, doesn't mean you're a nice person. You're allowed to not like her. She's been horrible to you for years. Despite this, you've been keeping her needs met, despite your own grief. This is commendable, and you need to move on with your life for your own MH. I can't believe that people are giving you such a hard time! I hope that she moves on and is happier wherever she lands, and you find some peace and space.

I'm so pleased that you made the initial phone call and that they are coming on Thursday. Like others have said, you just need to be clear on what you want with the SW and I'd as LO advise making a note of their name and phone number, just in case you forget to ask any questions whilst they are in your home.

Oh yes definitely take their name
I doubt they will give you a direct phone number though.
You always have to go through the contact centre who take a message and then no-one calls you back.
Unless that's just my area.

Great news re ss coming to assess. You'll need to be really firm. In our case as mil had savings they did the assessments the social worker said as were not prepared to do anything at all until her savings were gone. They were not even willing to point us in the direction of decent live in carers or homes to consider.

Make sure you're really clear MIL cannot stay. I know you have already, but you may need to be like a dog with a bone.

Thank you for all comments support and suggestions you are helping me so much. I'm feeling waves of guilt interspersed with waves of righteous determination. I really am determined mil cannot stay here. I will be devastated if they do not consider her to need supportive living. I think even then I am sticking to my guns that she has to move out as I cannot continue to accommodate her due to my own mental health suffering. I need to put my needs first. And am allowed to. Mil seems very positive about moving out, she is talking about not coping well and feeling frail and in need of support and understands that tomorrow she must tell it how it is and not put a brave face on things. So if she is honest about her needs and I'm clear that she has to move out, hopefully we will get a result.

That does sound positive, Joystir. 🤞🏻🤞🏻

MIL's attitude really does sound hopeful for you.

Just a suggestion:

DH's mother who was unsafe at her own home (with dementia) was good at saying what she did for herself such as cooking and cleaning but did none of this.

We wrote a factual letter to silently hand to the assessor who came to to see her (with us there) rather than accuse MIL of lying and becoming the bad guys in MIL's eyes. This said what she could and couldn't do.

The assessor was able to ask her some questions (based on the letter) which helped to give a more honest picture of her life.

You might want to prepare one. Stick to facts rather than your opinon or feelings.

e.g. MIL is unable to bath or wash herself.

MIL is not willing to be in the house overnight without another person present.

It sounds as if mother-in-law understands at some level that this is a good option for her, because of her difficulties and her condition she was previously trapped and unable to see the wood for the trees.
difficult and dysfunctional people often seem to have had backgrounds which left them preloaded with anger and pain
without the right intervention they just become more difficult and dysfunctional
not that anyone really knew what the right intervention would be
not that they never knew they needed an intervention
It's all so painful and difficult
🙏 for a good outcome for you OP

I feel for you both, at the end of the day MIL is grieving too. And perhaps she is aware of your needs, her actions suggest she is thinking that the current situation cannot continue.
I really hope that things go well tomorrow for you both.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that tomorrow's appointment goes well, and that the assessor gets a good understanding of your MIL's capabilities.

Of course you deserve to have a break. To be able to go away, to go out. And you deserve time to grieve your loss without this added stress. You are obviously at breaking point.

One thought struck me though. You said that your MIL moved in with your DW before you came on the scene. I imagine that your MIL and her other daughter could possibly see the house as hers/theirs rather than yours. I'm not saying that would be right, fair or reasonable. But it might give an insight into your MIL's stubbornness and your SIL's apparent lack of care towards your situation.

Good luck OP.

My very best wishes to you @joystir59 I really hope you get a good outcome from the meeting tomorrow

I personally believe that it's important for each of us to make provision for our own old age, while we're still in a position to do so. It should not fall on the nearest family member to pick up the slack when we become frail. I certainly don't expect my children to care for me when the time comes.

@Gazelda
Mil moved into my DW's house. Then i moved in and we got married. Mil was always very clear that she was not living in her own home but in daughters house. We moved 3.5 years ago, into the house I live in with mil. This house was bought jointly by DW and I. So mil has never been under any illusion that the house was in any sense her's.