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Original poster

Secular schools

211 replies

Dragonrider · 12/05/2009 14:14

I don't want this to sound like an anti-Christian post. I can understand that religious people might want a religious school and I think it's great that religious parents have this option. But, I think it is hugely unfair that atheist parents are not respected in the same way. I resent that my decision to bring up my child/ren without a religion will be undermined. I have some years before we actually have to make any kind of decision, but if we don't move then we have a choice of a CofE voluntary aided school and a Catholic prep school. I am not likely to be in a position to home educate, but if there isn't a suitable English school we would get a place at the (secular) German school (dp is German), but that's in Richmond.

I hope this isn't too controversial. I'm not anti-religion, I just resent having it forced on me. It makes me a bit embarressed of the English school system that we would have to move and send our child to a private foreign school to get a secular education. This has got me quite worked up (I need to find something better to do with mat leave! ), AIBU? (I'm hormonal, so please be nice to me if I am!)

Do you think there is any chance of secular schools being set up, or are foreign schools the only option? Would you consider a secular school if there was one available? I don't even reall understand why it's forbidden. I know it's a Christian country, but there are non-Christian schools. Does anyone know what would I need to do to petition for schools to be allowed to become secular?

OP posts:
Overmydeadbody · 12/05/2009 14:18

I was a bit put out when I first realised that our catchment school was CofE, as we are not religious, but actually, now that DS is there, it doesn't really matter. He still has a choice about what he chooses to believe or not, and it certainly isn't forced on any of the children, or at least DS doesn't feel any of the CofE beliefs are forced on him. He's quite happy to say to anyone who questions him that he doesn't believe it but anyone else has the right to or not to.

Now I like the fact that he's growing up knowing that not everyone always shares the same beliefs as you.

slug · 12/05/2009 14:42

I'm totally with you on this one. I was horrifed to realise that we are effectively barred from our five closest schools due to DH and I being godless heathens. As a result we were forced to compete for the oversubscribed only secular school in our area.

It is unfair because if you are religious you can send your child to a secular school if you wish and can compete on equal grounds for a place. However, if you are not religious you cannot even apply for most of the local religious schools as they require a priest/vicar/shaman's letter of approval first. If you do apply you are automatically at the bottom of the selection criteria.

It does annoy me that I fund these schools with my taxes yet they deny my child access on the grounds of religion.

Original poster
Dragonrider · 12/05/2009 15:16

I've just noticed there is a petition here which is making a similar point.
Do you think it will work?

OP posts:
SarahL2 · 12/05/2009 15:34

You could try this one too

SarahL2 · 12/05/2009 15:36

There are loads - another

spokette · 12/05/2009 15:47

Most tax payers who fund grammar schools are also denied access to them because of the eleven plus. Where are the petitions to get rid of grammar schools?

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 12/05/2009 15:53

You could always start one...

spokette · 12/05/2009 16:00

Yeah, let's start petitions to get rid of things that most people don't use but for which they pay taxes.......

slug · 12/05/2009 16:16

Grammar schools, even though I'm not fond of them, are not the same issue. The point here is many children are being discriminated against on the grounds of religion. If a state school refused a child entry because their parents are Jewish there would be an uproar. However, a religious school, one that is funded by taxpayers of all religions, can refuse entry ont he basis of religion.

It's funny how it's called discrimination when the religious are disadvantaged, but called choice when it disadvantages the irreligious.

nappyaddict · 12/05/2009 16:19

There is no such thing as a secular school in this country. Even the non-denominational schools still have to have a daily act of worship (usually Christian but I think in some areas it might be Muslim etc)

IMO there should be some true secular schools where the only place religion has is in RE lessons.

MadBadandDangerousToKnow · 12/05/2009 16:25

The VA school at which I'm a governor ear-marks one third of its places as community places, open to anyone and with no reference at all to church attendance. In practice, about half the places are treated as community places each year as the foundation (ie church-attending) places are under-subscribed. I think most (all?) C of E schools do this, as the church sees it as part of its commitment to the community to offer education to people who want it.

I respect the POV of people who want a completely secular education for their children but just wanted to point out that not all faith schools are closed to people who don't subscribe to that faith.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 12/05/2009 16:27

IMO all schools should be secular.

Original poster
Dragonrider · 12/05/2009 17:46

Madbad (love your name by the way). I was hoping someone connected with a religious school would post. I don't know what a VA school is, but it's interesting to hear that they leave spaces for non-religious children. Is that compulsory or are they using it to attract more children? Are they still expected to go to prayers, or is their non religion / other religion accepted as an equivalent alternative? If the parents of the non-religious children decide to withdraw their children from assembly etc (that is allowed isn't it?) what is provided as an alternative? Is there any feeling of us and them in the school?

I think that grammar schools are different because they're not pushing another agenda, they're just about education. Although I see the point that many people pay for them but can't use them.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dragonrider · 12/05/2009 17:49

Seeing all the petitions and the feeling of some mners, I'm suprised there isn't more discussion of providing secular schools- there is clearly a substantial demand for them.
What would be the best route to follow to push for an increase / introduction of secular schools in an area? Would complaining to the LEA do it, or does it need to be directly to the government?

OP posts:
terramum · 12/05/2009 18:04

On discovering that the only 2 junior schools here were a CofE and a Catholic, and being anti religion in schools I started wondering what we were going to when DS got to that age. Then I found out about about Home Ed and started reading about it, making contact with other HE'ers. It seemed such a lovely thing for us to do & fitted in with out general parenting philosophy that we've never really looked at schools at all since

ramonaquimby · 12/05/2009 18:13

agree, all schools should be secular

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 12/05/2009 18:14

Dragonrider, the British Humanist Society campaigns on this issue.

spokette · 12/05/2009 19:03

My DTS attend a CofE school in an area where it is the only church school out of seven schools. I sent them there because I wanted them to go to a church school and the non-religious parents who send their children there do so because they want them to benefit from the ethos inculcated throughout the school, i.e. tolerance, respect, service and charity. There is building renovation work being planned and because the school is VA, the parents have to contribute 10% of the costs.

Also, in terms of admissions, the school has a priority order with those who attend church in the parish given first choice. I really don't see how that is any different from other schools which prioritise based on distance from school.

I would say about one third of children admitted have no affiliation to the CofE and the school is inclusive. IMO, the bilious invective directed at church schools is misplaced and demonstrates intolerance and inverse bigotry. Funny how non-religious types like to attack religious things without considering that they are themselves bigots.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 12/05/2009 19:10

"bilious invective"? Where?

piscesmoon · 12/05/2009 19:22

There are no secular state schools in England and there won't be until the church is separate from the state.

piscesmoon · 12/05/2009 19:25

If you want to petition I would suggest joining the Secular Society and petitioning for a secular Britain.
hereIt also explains the place of religion in schools.

Original poster
Dragonrider · 12/05/2009 19:27

Spokette, I think it's not fair to call me a bigot here. I'm not anti-religion or calling for all religious schools to be closed. I have no objection to religious schools, infact I think they can sometimes be a good thing. My objection is that there is no option for non-religious children. I do not understand why it is acceptable to force religion on the non-religious, but here we are in a state which endorces that legally. THAT is what I am objecting to. I am certainly not attacking religion, just that it is forced on people who do not want it.

OP posts:
piscesmoon · 12/05/2009 19:29

'I resent that my decision to bring up my child/ren without a religion will be undermined.'

I don't actually see the harm in them hearing other points of view. They will eventually make up their own minds. DCs of atheists may become Christians or Buddhists or whatever. DCs of Chistians may become atheists. It makes for great discussion and you can't control what your DC thinks.

piscesmoon · 12/05/2009 19:40

' My objection is that there is no option for non-religious children. '

I think that you mean the children of non-religious parents. The DCs are too young, and also haven't been given the opportunity to experience it so they can't know if they are religious or not! They are not clones. It is like saying we are a Conservative household-there is nothing to say that your DCs will follow. I think quite a few Cof E vicars have atheist parents-in the same way that a great many Cof E vicars have atheist DCs.

spokette · 12/05/2009 19:55

Dragonrider, the children of non-religious parents who attend the school can opt of the religious activities and that is the case for many state church schools so nothing is forced on them.

However, being the cynic that I am, I bet if their child was offered a starring role in a nativity play, they would not turn it down because somehow, I can't see the parents complaining about Christmas celebrations being forced on their off-spring