Secular schools

[Dragonrider]

I don't want this to sound like an anti-Christian post. I can understand that religious people might want a religious school and I think it's great that religious parents have this option. But, I think it is hugely unfair that atheist parents are not respected in the same way. I resent that my decision to bring up my child/ren without a religion will be undermined. I have some years before we actually have to make any kind of decision, but if we don't move then we have a choice of a CofE voluntary aided school and a Catholic prep school. I am not likely to be in a position to home educate, but if there isn't a suitable English school we would get a place at the (secular) German school (dp is German), but that's in Richmond.

I hope this isn't too controversial. I'm not anti-religion, I just resent having it forced on me. It makes me a bit embarressed of the English school system that we would have to move and send our child to a private foreign school to get a secular education. This has got me quite worked up (I need to find something better to do with mat leave! ), AIBU? (I'm hormonal, so please be nice to me if I am!)

Do you think there is any chance of secular schools being set up, or are foreign schools the only option? Would you consider a secular school if there was one available? I don't even reall understand why it's forbidden. I know it's a Christian country, but there are non-Christian schools. Does anyone know what would I need to do to petition for schools to be allowed to become secular?

"Nothing complicated, seeker. I'm not religious but I'm quite happy living in our curent situation where the supposed established religion is so benign that it will allow me to carry on with a lack of religion / a different religion / agnosticism."

But the only religion PRACTICED in state schools is Christianity.

Poppy, are you not influencing your children with your own beliefs anyway so one could say you are brainwashing them?

Children will always make up their own mind no matter what their parents or society tell them. If that was not the case, many children of vicars would not be atheist and many children of atheists would not turn to religion.

Slug, why is it wrong to select on the basis of ability?

Religion should not be part of education, why do you think it should?

The people who believe it is a good thing, what value do you think it holds within education?

No spokette, I have no beliefs in this area, I will leave them to decide for themselves, although this is increasingly difficult when outside input is so heavily weighed on the religious side.

I agree that people can change as they grow up, but this usually involves a great deal of soul searching if they have been influenced in childhood. Teenagers have enough soul searching to do without having another unnecessary weight added.

Poppity, who said anything about ability? And at what point did you get the idea I approved of teaching religion in schools?

I object strongly to superstition being taught as truth in state funded schools. Lets face it, 10% of a cost that is not an annual expense does not really consitute a massive contribution on the part of the churches. If church schools had all state funding withdrawn and the parents were forced to pay the full costs of their children's education, I suspect you would find all but the most devoted and wealthy melting away.

It's a national scandal that many parents are forced to lie about their religious belief simply to secure an education for their children.

Poppity: using the quotation "the religion question was voluntary and 4,011,000 chose not to answer it (7.7%)" I calculated a population of 52m. 37.3m is 71.7% of 52m (which I rounded to 'about 70%).

See also

Slug: you need better links than a satanist blogger and wiki.

I don't understand what is wrong with children learning about different religions and the influence it has on all societies throughout the world. Societies like the Aborigines, Native Americans and Africans have their own belief systems and believe in a deity greater than themselves and this was inculcated in everything that they do including teaching their children.

I think it is good to explore the meaning of different faiths because imo, there is currently a spiritual malaise in this country and people are now realising that the altar of consumerism and celebritydom and the other vacuous pursuits that have been so celebrated these past few years are actually meaningless and unfulfilling.

It seems to me that it is OK to take care of our mental, physical and emotional wellbeing but those of us who want to attend to our spiritual wellbeing are made to feel like freaks or pariahs. The fact is, society would be more tolerant, forgiving and altruistic if more of us started to nourish our spiritual selves. Religion is one way to do that but I am sure that humanist have their own way too even if they don't want to acknowledge it as spirituality.

Slug, the 10% contribution is met by the parents of the school (who are also taxpayers), not the church.

Oh for crying out loud, spokette - haven't you READ any of this thread??????????

Nobody - but NOBODY has objected to children being taught abotu different faiths and religions. In fact, I for one said I thought it was an excellent thing. And for them to celebrate Diwali, Christmas, Eid, Kwanza and MayDay.

What is being objected to is children being expected to pray as part of their normal school day.

Seeker

I was answering Poppity questions in her post Poppity on Wed 13-May-09 12:49:53.

So calm down

SLUG So sorry!!!!!!! I meant that to be addressed to Spokette. I misread the post

Poppity, in that case, I will answer.

I don't disagree with selecting on the basis of ability. However, if one objects to the fact that selection on religious attendance to church precludes the majority from attending a school, then one also has to acknowledge that selection by academic ability also precludes the majority whose parents also happen to be taxpayers who contribute to those schools from which their off-spring will be precluded.

Slug

You say 'My issue is with faith schools per say'. I say that is your right, of course.

But the state provides or finances a great many services that some people don't need or want to use. This issue goes much wider than faith schools or collective worship in maintained schools. That's all I'm trying to say and I'm bowing out now.

The trouble with using arguments about who can use services that taxes provide is that before you know it, everyone will be griping about their own hobby horse. I wonder how many people object to obese people or alcoholics or smokers or drug addicts being treated on the NHS because in their view, they have bought their condition on themselves?

relgious schools do have to provide places for non-believers if they do not fill themsleves up with religios types first - they cannot exclude us godless types, they can just put us down the priority list on admissions criteria so its unlikely we get in. you couldn't start a school which exculded people on grounds of HAVING a religion, article 14 of the european convention on human rights, and also, i think that would be terrible. plenty of people are religious but don't want their kids to go to a religious school.
i'd ban all faith schools myself as unprogressive and sociallly divisive, but i might as well say i'm banning bread for its just as unlikely to happen!!

Church schools are normally oversubscribed so it isn't as though people are being forced into sending their children to a church school against their will.

Most church schools take some who are pracising the faith but also local children irrespective of their families religion.
If they only took local children the best schools would end up taking only the rich children who can afford to buy a house near a school. Therefore there should be more of a social mix of children in a church school.

If churches ceased to be involved in schools a proportion of education funding would be taken away putting more pressure on the government education budget. Or are those wanting secular schools offering to contribute financially to setting up a secular school?

I agree with spokette about the need to nourish ones' spiritual side. If religious assemblies were scrapped in schools I doubt there would be a rush of people taking their children to church. The fact is most people can't be bothered to take their children to sunday school as they would rather go shopping on a Sunday morning, so if children don't say prayers / sing hymns at school they will never be given the chance.

Seeker, slug, poppity - do your children enjoy school assemblies? How would they feel if they didn't have an assembly. My DS has said he doesn't want to get elected to the school council as that would mean he would miss assembly.

Poppity - what nonsense to say everything is weighted on the religious side. In society as a whole religion is put to one side. Sports fixtures are arranged on Sundays, people shop on Sundays there is barely any difference between sunday and any other day in the way our society works.
This is why I fear that if religion is taken out of schools our children and grandchildren will never have the chance to discover it and make a decision on what they believe.

I actually agree with you on that last point spokette.
However, I don't think that religion needs to be taught as fact in schools to attend to our spiritual wellbeing. I think it is wrong to put innocent minds in a position where they believe to be fact something which is conjecture and opinion. I realise that other parts of education could be put in this category, but not until children are older, and therefore more able to decide whether they want to enrich their spirit in this way.

When different religions are demonstrated in RE, they are shown as things which some believe. During collective worship this is not the case. My children are told as fact that God and Heaven exist, and that He is good etc etc. It is unnecessary, and on such young minds it is brainwashing.

As many others have said, it is also completely wrong that there is very little choice but to subject your children to this. I live rurally and there are no schools other than C of E. In addition, the head of the governing body is very often the vicar.

It is very difficult to argue with people who believe in god, as their perspective is often one of non believers or agnostics missing out on something (spiritual wellbeing?!). I do not feel I am missing out, I feel complete without beliefs. I simply want a school untainted by the religious mindset.

Excellent post Susanbee.

I teach Sunday School. Trust me, compared to the numbers of children attending church schools, the numbers attending Sunday School in the CofE churches that I am aware of can sometimes be counted on one hand.

Our church also provides a youth club. Out of the 25 children who regularly attend, only about 3 attend church.

Funnily enough, there is not a secular equivalent provided in the community. The only youth clubs I know about are providing by the churches in the area.

there are council run youth groups all over the place. you don't need to believe in the supernatural to care about teenagers having something to do you know!
have you heard of kidscompany? god didnt start that. nor did one of his squad. and its amazing. high horse dismount required i think spokette.

Poppity

"I think it is wrong to put innocent minds in a position where they believe to be fact something which is conjecture and opinion."

Well I don't see the millions of young impressionable minds being damaged by the fantasy figure that is Father Christmas.

reallylostitnow, I think you are the one who needs to calm down and get of your high horse because only you have been abusive and resorted to puerile name calling.

Poppity

"It is very difficult to argue with people who believe in god, as their perspective is often one of non believers or agnostics missing out on something (spiritual wellbeing?!). I do not feel I am missing out, I feel complete without beliefs."

And some non-believers think believers are deluded and lacking something so they need the crutch of religion to fill a gaping hole in their lives.

The argument cuts both ways but the reality is that for both camps, neither is anywhere near the truth for most people.

reallylostitnow

If you really think people who go to church are anti gay, single mums etc you are very wrong. The vicar of my c of e church is gay. So was the vicar of my last church. So I don't think he would be anti gay would he?

You have a very warped view of churchgoers. And I don't go to mass either as I'm not catholic.

If you don't like the c of e or catholic church you could always try the Quakers.
The christian church in this country is a lot wider than you appear to realise.

Maybe you could also refrain from calling me a "complete tosser" just because I don't share your viewpoint.

I was not criticising people who don't go to church but was simply stating that if religion was taken out of school some children would never have the chance to learn about religion as they wouldn't be taken to sunday school. Your post just reinforces this.

susanbee how patronising to think that if not at church we will be shopping, reallylostitnow you answered for me

As for enjoying assemblies, no the ones with their very religious head, they don't. They enjoy the ones where they get certificates, and have interesting people in to tell them about their hobbies etc The religious one, and the prayers/hymns they have to do in the others bore them and sometimes confuse the youngest at school.

It is not nonsense to say that things are heavily weighted on the religious side. I was talking about giving my children a balanced view, and at present due to the school they attend, I don't feel that is happening. I would not usually discuss religion with them, but find I am now having to as a result of some of the beliefs which have been foisted on them during school hours.

As for the funding question, is it right that religion should buy attendees through funding schools? Could they not fund them and keep their noses out, as a christian gesture?

I resent being told that I am somehow unable to behave myself without some kind of imaginary being watching my every move.