Secular schools

[Dragonrider]

I don't want this to sound like an anti-Christian post. I can understand that religious people might want a religious school and I think it's great that religious parents have this option. But, I think it is hugely unfair that atheist parents are not respected in the same way. I resent that my decision to bring up my child/ren without a religion will be undermined. I have some years before we actually have to make any kind of decision, but if we don't move then we have a choice of a CofE voluntary aided school and a Catholic prep school. I am not likely to be in a position to home educate, but if there isn't a suitable English school we would get a place at the (secular) German school (dp is German), but that's in Richmond.

I hope this isn't too controversial. I'm not anti-religion, I just resent having it forced on me. It makes me a bit embarressed of the English school system that we would have to move and send our child to a private foreign school to get a secular education. This has got me quite worked up (I need to find something better to do with mat leave! ), AIBU? (I'm hormonal, so please be nice to me if I am!)

Do you think there is any chance of secular schools being set up, or are foreign schools the only option? Would you consider a secular school if there was one available? I don't even reall understand why it's forbidden. I know it's a Christian country, but there are non-Christian schools. Does anyone know what would I need to do to petition for schools to be allowed to become secular?

Historically the churches were the first bodies to offer education to the poor-this is the reason that there are a lot of them. In the 1870 Education Act Board schools were built in the places that didn't have church schools-to fill in the gaps. A lot of church schools don't have selection-they are the only school in the area.

Its a bit like London having the most antiquated tube in Europe because we had the first one. iyswim. (actually I think it might have been Budapest...I digress). Legacy issues blighting modern needs.

Closing a school due to academic ability is diferent from closing a school due to which religion you are - in the same way that closing a school to particular football supporters would be rather weird.

If you close a school to people that are too inteligent and m,ake them go to a different school where the lesson will suit them better is surely common sense as the school is about teaching and children have different abilities so segragating on their ability would make more sense.

Religious teaching in board schools was restricted to non-denominational instruction, or none at all.

Parents had the right to withdraw their children from religious education. This applied even to church schools. Rate-supported schools were prohibited from using distinctive religious formularies.

All schools would be inspected, making use of the existing regime. The individual schools continued to be eligible for an annual government grant calculated on the basis of the inspection ('payment by results').

Between 1870 and 1880, 3000-4000 schools were started or taken over by school boards. Rural boards, run by parishes had only one or two schools to manage, but towns and city boards had very many.

There were ongoing political clashes between the vested interests of Church, private schools, and the National Education League followers. In some districts the creation of boards was delayed by local vote. In others, church leaders managed to be voted onto boards and restrict the building of board schools, or divert the school rate funds into church schools. So this is why a lot of church schools don't have selection - they are the only school in the area.

The church didn't want to lose the power they had and losing pupils to a board school would possibly mean an empty pue in the local parish church

pue?

spokette on Wed 13-May-09 10:11:28
"I really don't understand about why one gets worked up about how many places are reserved in church schools for non-religious children. All schools have a selection criteria. It just so happens that church schools have an option that non-church schools do not adopt.

As I said earlier, there are seven primary schools in my area and only one is a church school so those parents who want a church school for their children but don't get it, have to accept a secular schools."

That's nice for you. But what about communities where the only school is CofE and church attendance is required (not long since we had a thread about one such community). Seems very unfair to send children commuting a long way just because they don't happen to be church-goers.

England doesn't have secular schools. They are non denominational schools and they have to have daily acts of worship that are broadly Christian. I was in one yesterday where the vicar was taking assembly, he does it once a fortnight-I also go to other schools that are not church schools and the vicar takes assembly occasionally.

I don't think it should ever be permitted for a church school to be the only school in the area. 25% of primary schools are either CoE or Catholic, with something around 10% of people attending church weekly (or even monthly I seem to recall from the Tearfund report). So only 1 in 10 schools should reasonably be religious (and then there are the many branches of christianity that should I suppose be represented, along with other faiths too, to be fair - although of course we might not actually like that).

That most children in church schools do not go to Sunday school shows to me that their families are not in fact religious, and probably do not have any great attachment to the school being religious. The children are probably at the school because it is local (and many rural people have no choice, which is very wrong) or seen as good (and research has shown this is mostly due to selection and not to any particular benefit of the religious approach of the school), with a smaller group of parents choosing the religious values.

Religious segregation has been shown to be bad in many societies (Northern Ireland being the one closest to home) and it may also be bad for religions too - church attendance is much higher in countries with secular state education systems, like the US.

My children went to the local primary school, chosen in preference of the Catholic or CoE schools. And yet we still had the local vicar popping n regularly for a bit of propaganda, with visits to his church thrown in too. My dd was heavily influenced, and not in the slightest bit interested in any parental influence - because "Father Christopher has a bigger house that you". It really rankled. Since then they have been to school in the US and now in Canada. Both systems with monthly assemblies and no religion (at all). They haven't complained, and their spiritual development is just fine (personally I think having fabulous landscape all around you is more spiritually uplifting than getting bored stiff listening to a sermon).

I was raised a Catholic and my sister is a vicar. For those who find religion their solace and salvation that is fabulous. But forcing it on other people is not the way to win hearts and souls.

Nooka, thank you for putting it so well, I am always to busy spitting feathers in these kind of threads to be so eloquent.

too busy, gah!

Nooka I think your judgements of church schools are clouded by negative religious experiences you have had. I doubt many primary school children have to listen to a boring sermon in their assemblies. I do not remember ever being bored in assembly at school. I think most children love singing in Assembly. My children go to Sunday school and love it. They do practical activities such as planting, arts and crafts. There is no reason religion needs to be boring.
I have never lived in an area where the church school is the only option. I don't think it is the norm.
If you don't like the schools in your area why not move. I would. There are probably 1000s of community primary schools in the country.

"That most children in church schools do not go to Sunday school shows to me that their families are not in fact religious, and probably do not have any great attachment to the school being religious"

I don't think this is necessarily the case. People have busy lives and do not always make time to take their children to Church. However I expect many of these people do see themselves as Christian and are happy for their children to have assemblies with a christian ethos at school.

Oh no....seriously hiding this thread now. Deluded you are susanbee

No I'm not deluded at all.

So, as someone who didn't grow up in the UK, this is what I find odd -

If I moved to a country that was religious and said: "We do not accommodate. There is one school system. There is one state religion, and all schools have to teach that faith". Then at least you know what you are in for.

But in the UK, on one hand posters here are saying: "there is one state religion - it is Church of England", but on the other hand there is already an accommodation for differences with schools of non-state faiths (including non-Christian ones) being state funded. So, the genie is already out of the bottle. People can already opt-out of the state religion in school, albeit only by following another faith.

In which case, since the precedent for a divergence from state-faith schools already exists, why not have truly secular state schools too? I can't imagine that anyone would argue that there are not a lot of secular people in the UK, (and I'm talking about born-here Brits, not foreigners like myself).

A secular school doesn't mean a school for atheists. It is just a neutral space where children with different faiths or no faith can all feel comfortable, as there is no religious overtures to make any one group feel out of place. As nooka eloquently pointed out - you can have secular schools and still raise children with spirituality. It is just that spiritual or religious acts would take in the privacy of home, or in your place of worship. And, for those who love their faith schools, they can exist alongside. Wouldn't this option make everyone happy?

I don't see the big deal in sending a child to a faith school if you're an atheist. 99% of their daily life will be spent with your believes of non-believe and a tiny 10 minute assembly may say a very small, and now aday, pc prayer. I hear people say that they don't want religion being pushed on them but its not pushing religion on anyone. If anything children are getting to see what other sections of society live like and believe in. Sheltering them from all this is detrimental to their development and not giving them the free choice to decide which spiritual path to choose - if any - but imposing our narrow views on our kids.

By the way I'm not any religion.

Miss, children are very suggestable. My ds went to a normal 'secular' state primary and still "god' crept in. So he keeps asking me if God exiss. I say, well, I don't beleive in God, but some people do etc etc. But it annoys me. Keep faith in the home. which is not to say not to learn about faith and others faiths, and celebrate those differences, just hate being coerced into a position where I am going against my deeply held belief that religion is a societal construct born out of ignorance and superstition.

Just to add someone mentioned the words "heavily influenced" and "rankled" which surely says more about our issues about not being able to have full control over how our kids think or what they believe. I'd rather my child was fee to be individual even if we didn't agree with each other. What difference does it make if a child believes in God and we don't? What does it say about us that it bothers us so much that our children may have differing opinions to us?

Blimey, its one of the few things parents are allowed to make decisions about purely by themselves. I defend to the death anybodies right to bring up their children in a religious way,while reserving the right to disagree with both the ideas and the cultural ramifications of it, and I hope that my deeply held beliefs would also be similarly respected.

If my child "found God" I would try to understand. But I am not going to support promoting it in a school setting.

' My ds went to a normal 'secular' state primary '

In England there are no secular state primary schools. You should read the education acts. They are non denominational-this is very different to secular.

pisces, I get the feeling that although I abuse the terminology we might well be on the same side.

Do disabuse me if I am wrong.

Although I really bloody object to being made to take sides.

My perception is that all people of faith feel an entitlement to special treatment, ie, dont offend us. why is it completely okay to offend my deeply held beliefs? You think that by being atheist./agnostic is a lazy unthinking standpoint? shame on you, all those who thinks its fine for our children to be indoctrinated by christianity however mild. what if every school had 'mild' Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist doctrine as its baseline? how happy would you be then?

For heavens sake, use a bit of logic.

WWM: we have established that the majority of people in this country have a religious faith, and the majority of them are Christian. Don't you think that God will 'creep in' wherever you go? Doesn't your DS notice churches as he walks down the street, or women in hijabs? Does he wonder why people say bless you when he sneezes? Does he hear about the Pope on the news? Does he think about where the place-names of St Davids, Bishop's Stortford or Church Stretton come from? You can't keep him in a secular bubble forever.
I was exposed to all these influences when I grew up and managed to avoid becoming religious. It's not contagious, you know.

WWM - I was wondering the same thing! I think that many people here are not bothered by mild religion in their schools because they find CofE benign. I honestly wonder if they would be saying this if their children were forced to participate in even 5 minutes of prayer for a religion that they didn't find benign - Scientology, anyone? (And there is a big leap in assumption that everyone finds CofE benign. I mean I was already given a for saying that I don't celebrate Christmas - even though I explained that I come from a non-Christian background! People are different.)

But, to me the real question is that if the state has already allowed schools to opt-out of the state religion (by allowing state-funded Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc schools), why not also allow completely secular ones along side? Who is this hurting? I think it is amazing that other parents can choose to have their children taught their faith in schools if that is what they want. And even that atheists can choose to send their children to a faith school. But if there are enough people who don't want religion in school (and I really think that there are), why not allow for that choice too? How is this hurting anyone??

From the teachernet website:

"The aim of the collective worship policy is to provide the opportunity for pupils to:
-worship God
-reflect on values that are of a broadly Christian nature and on their own beliefs
-develop a community spirit, a common ethos and shared values
-consider spiritual and moral issues
-respond to the worship offered.

Statutory Duty of School
All maintained schools provide daily collective worship for registered pupils (apart from those who have been withdrawn by their parents). This is usually provided within a daily assembly.

The head teacher is responsible (under the School Standards and Framework Act 1998) for arranging the daily collective worship after consulting with the governing body. Daily collective worship must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character. The precise nature will depend on the family background, ages and abilities of the pupils. However, if it is inappropriate for some or all of the pupils to take part in Christian collective worship, the head teacher may apply to the local Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education (SACRE) for a determination to have this requirement lifted.

Collective worship in foundation schools with a religious character and voluntary schools will be in accordance with the school's trust deed. Where provision is not made by a trust deed, the worship should be in accordance with the beliefs of the religion or denomination specified for the school."

So you can already withdraw from worship or apply to SACRE. What more do you want?

cod, I do not accept that we have established that the majority of people in this country have some kind of faith. where on earth do you get that idea from?

My ds will understand the historical significance of religion in our society's history and language, but I sure ain't going to tell him its the truth.

Do you not understand the idea of me strongly objecting to my child being exposed to a system rooted in christianity?

The basic tenets of being nice to people are fine, but the fundemental issue is that I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY KIND OF GOD. A belief I am strongly and firmly attached to. As strongly as any Muslim, Jew, Christian, or any other person of faith who beleives in a God.. How dare people assume my beliefs should just melt into the woodwork because they are "nothing'beliefs?

Again, try for a bit of logic.

what we need are schools totally divorced from any form of religion.