Secular schools

[Dragonrider]

I don't want this to sound like an anti-Christian post. I can understand that religious people might want a religious school and I think it's great that religious parents have this option. But, I think it is hugely unfair that atheist parents are not respected in the same way. I resent that my decision to bring up my child/ren without a religion will be undermined. I have some years before we actually have to make any kind of decision, but if we don't move then we have a choice of a CofE voluntary aided school and a Catholic prep school. I am not likely to be in a position to home educate, but if there isn't a suitable English school we would get a place at the (secular) German school (dp is German), but that's in Richmond.

I hope this isn't too controversial. I'm not anti-religion, I just resent having it forced on me. It makes me a bit embarressed of the English school system that we would have to move and send our child to a private foreign school to get a secular education. This has got me quite worked up (I need to find something better to do with mat leave! ), AIBU? (I'm hormonal, so please be nice to me if I am!)

Do you think there is any chance of secular schools being set up, or are foreign schools the only option? Would you consider a secular school if there was one available? I don't even reall understand why it's forbidden. I know it's a Christian country, but there are non-Christian schools. Does anyone know what would I need to do to petition for schools to be allowed to become secular?

You can opt out of these things. However, people rarely do as they don't want to look OTT or make their child feel different. It would be very hard to be the only child sitting in the classroom during daily worship.

I would like schools to be secular, we are atheists but that's not really why I think schools should be secular. I do know various people who do have strong religious views who feel the same. (There was an article by a Christian in the Guardian last week arguing this.)

I think education should be about questioning your views and being exposed to other perspectives, and if children are segregated due to parental belief that's not as likely to happen. As an atheist I don't actually want my children to only mix with children of atheists, I'd rather they mixed with children from a variety of backgrounds. I find it amazing that people do actually really want their children to go to single-faith schools - even if you have a strong faith, don't you have home, church and sunday school (or similar) to get that across? Isn't that enough, without complete segregation?

Mad - the 'good/excellent' church schools in my area (Catholic and C of E) have as their main criteria those attending the church. They are over-subscribed in that category and fill all available places. No places are reserved for non-churchgoers which causes some bad feeling. The 'satisfactory' church schools however have as their main criteria (after siblings), distance from the school. So it seems each church school can just make up the rules as they go along.

What generally isn't fair is that some children (churchgoing parents) get the choice of two schools e.g. good church school and under-performing non-church school and the other children (non-churchgoing parents) don't get any choice at all. If the church school was totally funded by the church - fair enough, but that isn't the case.

Fennel, the CofE school my DTS go to has children whose parents believe in atheism, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and even Catholicism. What we all have in common is a set of values that is also upheld by the school and that is why they attend. My DTS have been at the school for two terms and they have celebrated Eid, Chinese New Year, the lights celebration for Hindus and the Jewish celebration (I forget which).

I do not recognise this forced indoctrination that is often levelled at church schools. My DTS are learning about and to respect other faiths and cultures. This is one way of building a tolerant society but it is certainly not the only way.

I do feel that segregating children at school by parental belief, or lack of it, and, as ellingwoman says, therefore giving some families a lot more choice of schools than others, is not the way I'd go about building a tolerant society. In many areas the children are severely segregated in school, and in places like Blackburn the "religious" segregations of school children are, in fact, racial segregation. I can't see that that is conducive to a more educated, tolerant society.

Also, all the research figures on faith schools consistently show that faith schools take, on average, fewer children from poor backgrounds, fewer children with special needs (this is where mumsnetters usually say, but MY faith school isn't like that. But overall, on average, they are. The research is quite clear on that).

Again, I don't see this as exemplifying a tolerant society, and if I were part of a religious group, particularly the CofE, I'd be utterly ashamed of the role church schools are playing in these issues.

I can't resist mounting my favourite hobby horse and galloping it round the paddock.

In my experience, atheist and agnostic parents like me have no problem with their children learning ABOUT religion and all the different faiths. The problem comes when they actually DO the religion. Which, in all English State schools they do.

I have no problem with my children acting in a Nativity play or singing carols, or in making Diwali lamps or all the other lessons in our own and others cultures that make most primary schools such lively exciting places.

I DO have a problem with my children being expected to pray to a God in which I don't believe and which I want my children to make their own minds up when they reach adulthood (hence my being OK with them learning ABOUT religion.

I would just ask people who think that we should just accept the Christian worship that is foisted on our children how they would feel if their children were expected to take part in a Litany to the Mother Goddess or a Black Mass 3 times a week.

Johann hari wrote a very good article on this last week.

here

Long though.

very well put seeker

Piscesmoon, I think seeker has explained exactly what I wanted to say. I have no objection to learning about religion, but I resent the expectation of participation. I think RE lessons should teach about religion (all religions) but that it should be in a factual sence, i.e. ''some people think...''It's clearly important to understand the role of religion in the world, but that can be taught without expecting the children to partake in any.
I think that by age 12 or so children can have a fair idea of what they believe. I see what you mean about not labelling the child with the parent's religion, but surely that makes schools of any religion very wrong?

Dragonrider - To answer your questions as best I can without having the school's policy documents in front of me.

VA = voluntary aided.

I thought that the practice of setting aside a proportion of places as community places was national, but as it doesn't happen where ellingwoman lives I now wonder whether it's a policy of our diocese. I don't know.

As I mentioned (and as were told at a recent training event) the C of E (although as I've just said, maybe they mean our particular diocese here) has been involved in the provision of education for centuries and still sees that as part of its role now. So the provision of community places is part a commitment to social action, part a historical commitment/legacy and (I guess) part pragmatic as, in our school at least, places would otherwise go unfilled. I believe - although maybe someone connected with a Catholic school will correct me - that the Catholic church takes a different view and regards its schools as being for the education of the faithful.

I think the practice about attending assembly is the same as in any other school - children are expected to attend unless parents exercise their right to opt out. As far as I know (and this is really the headteacher's area rather than the governors') all children do attend.

I've never detected any sort of 'us and them' about which children are from Christian families and which aren't. At the meeting for new parents, the headteacher said that the school sought to demonstrate its Christian character by emphasising Christian values, the chief of which is kindness to others. I don't think anyone has suggested that Christians have a monopoly on such values.

We are in a large borough with lots of schools nearby so nobody is forced to apply to our school for lack of any alternative. I can see that it is more problematic for non-religious families in areas where all schools are faith schools.

If you want to push for more provision in non-faith schools in your area, you probably need first to establish whether yours is one of those areas which needs more school places or is shedding the places it already has. (And remember that under the Education Act even non-faith schools have to provide a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian character). I really don't know what you can do if school provision isn't expanding in your area and there's no prospect of creating a new school; the buildings of VA schools belong to the governors, so even if there was any way in law that the school could be stripped of its religious character, that wouldn't (as I understand it) leave an empty building for the LEA to take over.

I hope this helps but I don't feel qualified to act as spokesperson for the C of E and our school possibly is not typical.

Apologies for the long posr!

I agree with all DCs learning about all religions and so I am for RE lessons. I don't think that collective worship has a place in schools in this day and age, and it is very difficult because it is set by law and has to be taken by people who don't necessarily believe in it.
However-to go around in circles-it won't change until we are a secular country. I think that it is a good idea to separate church and state because while the Queen is Head of both and the Prime Minister appoints bishops etc state schools will continue to follow the state religion.
It isn't something that bothers me, but a lot of people (judging by the threads like this that turn up once a month on average)don't like it. You would do much better to campaign for secular schools rather than just moan. If enough people wanted change, then change would eventually come-while people moan, but do nothing, it carries on as usual.Perhaps the majority are happy with it.

Or post, even.

Hi pisces - thought I'd see you on here!

And, one thing I forgot to add that I really resent. The only way I can prevent my children being expected to pray is by removing them from assembly. So in order for them not to participate in Christian worship, they have to miss out on an important part of the community life of the school. And be seen as the odd ones out.

Seeker - do you know the extent of the prayer bit? In our assembly (Infants) the children put 'hands in their laps' and repeat after the HT a few sentences about thanks. E.g. thank you for my school, teachers, keeping me safe etc. There is a Dear God at the beginning and an Amen at the end but that's it. It takes about one minute and must be the minimum required. Dd3 said they do the same at the junior school. Would you find this acceptable or not?

Piscesmoon, I have now signed as many .gov petitions for secularism in schools as I can find But looking at the replies for some of the past petitions I don't hold much hope. How many petitions do you think they need before they are forced to take it seriously? I'm also looking into other alternative ways of trying to make this happen. (suggestions are welcome)
This appears to be the stock answer to petitions for secular schools though:

The Government recognises the important role that faith providers have played in the school system in this country, and as part of its commitment to increasing choice and diversity for parents supports new schools with a religious character where there is support in the local community and where this would contribute to raising standards. Faith schools are popular with parents, and we are committed to increasing the choice of places available, including those for parents who are not of a particular faith but value the structured environment provided by schools with a religious character.
The Government also believes that every pupil should be given the opportunity to develop their knowledge, understanding and awareness of the major religions represented in this country. As such, maintained schools must provide religious education for all registered pupils, although parents have the right to withdraw their child from all or any part of this education. The aim of religious education is to encourage respect for those holding different beliefs and consideration of issues around faith, identity and diversity which underpin community cohesion.
In addition, all maintained schools are required to carry out a daily act of Collective Worship of a broadly Christian nature for all pupils, to reflect the religious tradition of this country. Head teachers can apply to have the ?Broadly Christian? requirement lifted in respect of all or some pupils. Voluntary schools and foundation schools with a religious character can hold collective worship in accordance with the tenets of their faith.
Every parent has the right to withdraw their child from Collective Worship. In addition, from 1 September 2007, students over the age of 16 have the right to withdraw themselves from collective worship, without parental consent.
The Government believes that Collective Worship stimulates thinking and encourages pupils to learn about Christianity as well other religions and belief systems, nurturing respect and tolerance. It also offers schools a unique opportunity to develop their particular ethos and set of shared values.

ellingwoman. It's still a prayer. It is still expecting my children to pray to a Christian God.

And it it COMPLETELY unnecessary. We have many moments of quiet reflection at home that don't involve God. We even, on occasion, say a kind of Grace before meals that doesn't involve God. My children have a sense of wonder and an awareness of the transcendent - without God. We try to behave well and morally and look after ourselves and other people - without God.The Humanist Society has some fab assemblies on its website - without God.

Perhaps a Parent Promoters Foundation is another option, if you want to lobby for the creation of a new school? It worked for this school.

From seeker - It is still expecting my children to pray to a Christian God.

But is it, Seeker? It's a long time since I attended a school assembly, but I imagined that it was a non-specific and non-denominational God and so meant whatever the children decided it meant. (That's certainly how God is mentioned now at Brownies). Granted, that's still no comfort to atheists and secularists but it does accommodate people of other faiths and belief systems.

The Scout Movement does a good non-specific God. I just about manage to deal with that - because I choose for my children to go to Scouts. Other youth organizations are available. Schools have a statutory obligation for their God to be the Christian one - and if I want my children to go to school I have no choice.

It may only be a little bit of a prayer - but it's like being a little bit pregnant!

Like the OP, this issue really makes me stressed as well. I didn't grow up in the UK, so I had no exposure to the educational system here prior to having dd. she's nowhere near school age, but like the OP I've started to have a bit of look into it, and it is scaring me. I can't believe that there is a daily worship requirement even in non-faith schools. yikes!

ellingwoman - what you described with the "dear god" and "amen" - even if it is only a few seconds - would not be acceptable to me. The same way that I would never inflict my non-belief on others, I would definitely not want my dd to be involved in any public or collective acts of worship.

would it be acceptable if, to accommodate people like me, ever other day these same dc's were asked to recite "There is no such thing as god." ?? I would never expect that. So isn't it a better for everyone if we keep these things private?

Anyway this is all very interesting. I've signed up to the British Humanist Association. Dragonrider: Maybe what we need to do lobby for some Humanist schools. I'm in London, I'm sure there are tons of similar parents. Surely they can cater to us too.

almama - I'm afraid that "dear God and "Amen' is the very least you can expect from a state primary school. I have had lots of stuff about Jesus dying for our sins at Easter and God making the world and similar- all with the ultimate authority only a teacher can give a bonkers statement!

I do tend to agree and would prefer no prayer. But because it is so benign I can't get too worked up about it. Interesting about the God having to be Christian though because nothing in our school would indicate that and I have assumed up to now that 'God' meant an all-encompassing generic God.

I remember a fabulous very long and very intersting thread about this ages ago, which ended with Onebatmother and I (I think) agreeing to run Enlightenment Days at all the country's Primary Schools.

Enlightenment Days!
I like it!
Just want to point out....3 of my dcs went to a CoE high school, we are humanists. They had to attend worship (assemblies in the chapel) but did not have to take part. IMO, a good experience to be able to sit respectfully while other people practise their religion (as I do if I'm invited to a wedding or christening eg)
However I'm told it's very boring!
OTOH, the religious education on offer was very poor, and compulsory, which I did object to.