Secular schools

[Dragonrider]

I don't want this to sound like an anti-Christian post. I can understand that religious people might want a religious school and I think it's great that religious parents have this option. But, I think it is hugely unfair that atheist parents are not respected in the same way. I resent that my decision to bring up my child/ren without a religion will be undermined. I have some years before we actually have to make any kind of decision, but if we don't move then we have a choice of a CofE voluntary aided school and a Catholic prep school. I am not likely to be in a position to home educate, but if there isn't a suitable English school we would get a place at the (secular) German school (dp is German), but that's in Richmond.

I hope this isn't too controversial. I'm not anti-religion, I just resent having it forced on me. It makes me a bit embarressed of the English school system that we would have to move and send our child to a private foreign school to get a secular education. This has got me quite worked up (I need to find something better to do with mat leave! ), AIBU? (I'm hormonal, so please be nice to me if I am!)

Do you think there is any chance of secular schools being set up, or are foreign schools the only option? Would you consider a secular school if there was one available? I don't even reall understand why it's forbidden. I know it's a Christian country, but there are non-Christian schools. Does anyone know what would I need to do to petition for schools to be allowed to become secular?

seeker you are scaring me even more!

I don't even like Christmas! (sorry, sorry. never celebrated it as a child either, so no sentimental attachment to it)... poor dd. I think I'm going to have to do a lot of deep breathing if we stay in the UK for her education.

So, how did those Enlightenment Days go?

What generally happens is that during assembly there is a period of reflection, on whatever has been the theme of the assembly, and then the person taking it says 'If you would like to make it your prayer, say amen'.It is then up to the DCs whether they want to pray. However this distinction is much too subtle for a 5 yr old, I suspect it goes over the heads of a lot of 10 yr olds.

I don't really think that if you were to attend assemblies you would find much to upset you. They tend to be about days of the year, many of which have a Christian origin but are still practiced by non believers, as in Pancake Day or themes such as kindness, doing your best, helping others etc. There are very often ones that don't even have that, they are DCs showing good work, entries into Gold Books or class assemblies that can be on anything-they generally follow what they have been learning in class (not RE).

I was going to ask what assemblies are.

In my experience, an assembly would be when the entire school sat together in the auditorium - which happened every once in a while on special occasions. Sounds like something different here.

A school has to hold an assembly every day. Secondary schools have problems with space. All primary schools can manage it. On the whole they have whole school ones, but they have some junior ones, some infant ones and some class ones to make a bit of a change. On the whole they manage at least 3 whole school ones a week. I supply teach, so I go to a lot of school assemblies.They are very similar.

seeker was just about to saddle up and join you in the paddock, then realised am past my self imposed curfew! will revisit this thread with interest tomorrow, you and piscesmoon have some useful things to say and knowledge to impart.

I have some big opinions on this and it's too late to start posting on it now then abandoning the thread..

would like to mention that the school our dd due to go to is non-denominational -when we were looking round the person showing us was very proudly telling us how they covered awareness of a whole list of religions - but was completely stumped when i explained we were atheists and did they cover that too .

save me a bit of that juicy grass for tomorrow

Our CofE school assembly is run by the local vicar two days a week and on one day some sort of youth minister leads it. They also have a lunch time club that children are invited to. They discuss god. Half the hand picked children are church goers the others are not. They do not ask the parent permission for the child to attend.

Blimey some people do get worked up over nothing!
In my experience of religion at schools it is a triumph of polite English non-assertiveness. They will tell the bible stories at Easter and Christmas and, apart from that, it is mostly nothing more dangerous than "do as you would be done by" and a few hymns.

Almama: assemblies are simply where the children come together for a common purpose. You know, this famous 'community cohesion' that everybody says they want in their local school. (BTW how can you not like Christmas? )

I am an agnostic and have no trouble with wishywashy CofE type religion at school. We have a Christian heritage in this country: how can you expect to understand this country if you don't understand that heritage. To banish the Bible would be akin to banishing Shakespeare.

"We have a Christian heritage in this country: how can you expect to understand this country if you don't understand that heritage. To banish the Bible would be akin to banishing Shakespeare."

I agree with about understanding the Christian part of our heritage. That's why I am happy for my children to learn ABOUT religion. What we are talking about here is actually practising a faith.

To be honest, I am annoyed by your "getting worked about nothing" remark. If you consider it nothing, then why are you not happy for it to be dropped to suit people like me, for whom it is far from nothing?

Well said codinbatter!

I hate all the anti school assembly posts on Mumsnet.

I fear in the end the secular society will force christiany out of schools and those of us who are happy with our children having a broadly christian education will end up not having the option available.

My DS attends a C of E school. I noticed a display about Muslims on the walls so the children are clearly getting a broad education and learning about Christianity AND other religions. I am glad this is the case.

Oh it annoys me that "But we reserve a third of the places for non-Christian children" argument.

All you need to do is look at the census statistics. For a start two thirds of the spaces in the school are reserved for 37% of the population. The remaining one third is open to competition for the 63% who profess no Christian faith. In my area 5 of the 6 schools within a half hour walk of ur place are Christian schools. Is it any surprise the one non christian school is massivley oversubscribed?

How would you feel if you were told that two thirds of the school places were reserved for white males and your daughters had to compete for the remaining third? Uproar I suspect. Yer for some reason, these sort of statistics are trotted out and displayed as an example of fairness.

I am not anti assembly.

I am not anti religion. If you want your child to have a broadly Christian upbringing then why not do it yourself at home.

At the moment it is impossible to have a State education in this country which is not broadly Christian. If I don't want that for my children there is NOTHING I can do about it. Explain to me why that is right.

Because it means your child will be open to alternative views not just your own Seeker.

"To be honest, I am annoyed by your "getting worked about nothing" remark. If you consider it nothing, then why are you not happy for it to be dropped to suit people like me, for whom it is far from nothing?"

Because I am an agnostic i.e. I'm not so sure that I / you / they are correct about this. I am quite happy to come to the conclusion of "dunno". I suppose that I do not feel threatened by religion, whereas you seem to be.

Religion has never touched my life but I do respect the fact that it can move others to produce wonderful Art and to do great charitable deeds. Personally, I cannot understand the need for religion but I do understand that a huge number of others feel very differently. It is that huge weight of numbers that gives me pause and makes me agnostic instead of atheist.

I want them to have alternative views. That's why I am very much in favour of learning about all faiths and religions, that's why I love it when they have Diwali celebrations, Eid celebrations, Christmas celebrations and dance round a maypole.

What I don't want is for my children to be taught that one of these faiths is more important than any other, or that one of them is "right". AND I do not want my children to practice religion in school. I do not want them to pray to any God, Christian or otherwise.

And even if I were a Christian I wouldn't want there to be prayers in school. That's not what schools are for.

I really don't understand about why one gets worked up about how many places are reserved in church schools for non-religious children. All schools have a selection criteria. It just so happens that church schools have an option that non-church schools do not adopt.

As I said earlier, there are seven primary schools in my area and only one is a church school so those parents who want a church school for their children but don't get it, have to accept a secular schools. The argument cuts both ways. However, you won't find those parents frothing at the mouth becaue they know their children will get a good education at the secular school anyway.

Seeker, the laws in this country are Christian based. Christmas, Easter, Mother's Day etc are Christian based. Do want those changed to reflect the fact that people like you reject to Christianity?

No. I just don't want my children to pray at school.

Then you can opt out.

I am happy that this country has a broadly Christian benign ethos and that this is perpetuated in schools. Would you rather live in Saudi Arabia, seeker?

"I really don't understand about why one gets worked up about how many places are reserved in church schools for non-religious children. All schools have a selection criteria. It just so happens that church schools have an option that non-church schools do not adopt."

Because, when 5 of the 6 local schools reserve two thirds of their places for Christian children, when practising Christians account for just over one third of the population, the remaining two thirds of the children are competing for places in the one school that will admit them, regardless of their religion, along with quite a few chrisitan children whose parents do not want them to attend christian schools.

It is one of the reasons why there is such a problem with school places in my area. There are enough places to go around. However, most of the schools reserve the right to reject children from these available places based on their parent's religion. The result is many children without school places and schools with extra capacity, which is being paid for via the taxes of these school less children, which they are barred from attending.

It's madness.

But why should I opt out? why shouldn't you opt in?

Let's be clear, I am not talking about faith schools here. I would clearly be HUGELY unreasonable if I sent my child to a faith school and objected to the praying.

I am talking about your standard state primary school.

You know the Saudi Arabia comment was silly, don't you, codinbatter? Shall we just pretend you never said it?

codinbatter I personally am not into Christmas as it was not something we celebrated when I was a child, so I have no sentimental or nostalgic attachment to it (I come from a non-Christian background). As an adult I can't get into it either, even as a not-very-religious festival with harmless reindeer and elves, etc. It just doesn't do it for me on any level. But that's just me. I understand people love it (even atheists), and I realise that in this country I am considered slightly crazy for this opinion. Just to be clear - I understand that the UK has a Christian heritage, etc., and I am even fine with a 'when in Rome' attitude, to a certain extent. I mean I would hardly start a campaign to ban Christmas!! But I was surprised about the worship in schools thing.

And, I am not for or against assemblies as I don't really know what they are here.

Anyway, I completely agree with seeker: I am fine with learning about religion in schools, that is education. But I don't want my dd to be taught to pray. That is something different, which I believe belongs in the home or with the family in a place of worship.

Spokkett, there ARE no secular schools, even the not-sepecifically religious schools are Christian. That is the problem, everywhere provides a Christian education forcing people who do not want their children to be given a religiously-biased education to home school or go to foreign owned schools in the UK.

"You know the Saudi Arabia comment was silly, don't you, codinbatter? Shall we just pretend you never said it?"

No. I'm very serious about it. Would you live in Saudi?