Secular schools

[Dragonrider]

I don't want this to sound like an anti-Christian post. I can understand that religious people might want a religious school and I think it's great that religious parents have this option. But, I think it is hugely unfair that atheist parents are not respected in the same way. I resent that my decision to bring up my child/ren without a religion will be undermined. I have some years before we actually have to make any kind of decision, but if we don't move then we have a choice of a CofE voluntary aided school and a Catholic prep school. I am not likely to be in a position to home educate, but if there isn't a suitable English school we would get a place at the (secular) German school (dp is German), but that's in Richmond.

I hope this isn't too controversial. I'm not anti-religion, I just resent having it forced on me. It makes me a bit embarressed of the English school system that we would have to move and send our child to a private foreign school to get a secular education. This has got me quite worked up (I need to find something better to do with mat leave! ), AIBU? (I'm hormonal, so please be nice to me if I am!)

Do you think there is any chance of secular schools being set up, or are foreign schools the only option? Would you consider a secular school if there was one available? I don't even reall understand why it's forbidden. I know it's a Christian country, but there are non-Christian schools. Does anyone know what would I need to do to petition for schools to be allowed to become secular?

poppity -so you think its funny for some one to be called a "tosser" for giving an opinion you don't agree with.

No, susanbee, I didn't notice that insult at the end, I apologise for seconding that.

I am going to back out of this discussion now, it inevitably becomes heated and would just go on and on.

I do feel it's a shame however, that it hasn't been acknowledged by the pro religion practiced in schools posters (apologies if I missed any), that there aren't enough secular schools. It is also a shame that religious practice is forced on children as a consequence of that and the compulsory worship agenda. Is this the way religions wish to gain new recruits rather than through balanced decisions?

By the way susanbee, although you did not resort to swearing, you were pretty insulting yourself.

I don't think I was insulting. I was just standing up for religion in schools. It seems acceptable in current society to bash christianity but not to support it.

From Poppity - I do feel it's a shame however, that it hasn't been acknowledged by the pro religion practiced in schools posters (apologies if I missed any), that there aren't enough secular schools.

I too had left this thread for much the same reasons as you, but assuming that you had classed me as a pro-religion practised in schools poster (actually, I'd class myself as a pro religion for those who want it .... which I think is an important distinction) then, yes, I had acknowledged that there is a problem if there's an under-supply of places not in faith schools for people who want them. In my post of 10:45 (for example) I said:

... I agree that there is a problem when the proportion of places in faith schools in an area is greater than the proportion of families who want their children to attend a faith school. In areas where new schools are being built, that seems like an opportunity to create more non-faith schools. There's a separate but related issue, I think, about the act of collective worship in all maintained schools. Personally, I'd be quite happy for that to become optional, so that schools are not required to hold an act of worship, but that requires a change in the law.

I really am leaving now.

Peace and (secular) love.

susanbee, you said that my opinion was 'nonsense'. I think that's insulting, not just sticking up for christianity, which incidentally, I think is nonsense, but I didn't stoop to saying any such thing.

Also 'Well I don't see the millions of young impressionable minds being damaged by the fantasy figure that is Father Christmas', you agree that god is a fantasy figure then?

poppity "I do feel it's a shame however, that it hasn't been acknowledged by the pro religion practiced in schools posters (apologies if I missed any), that there aren't enough secular schools. It is also a shame that religious practice is forced on children as a consequence of that and the compulsory worship agenda."

The reason I don't acknowledge this is that I don't see that children would benefit from attending secular schools.

I do not like the way that there is also a movement to remove NHS funding for hospital chaplains.

I really cannot see how society will be improved by having secular schools.

I haven't said anything about father christmas you must be referring to someone else.

Faith schools should be scrapped.

That's it, really.

I am sorry about my use of the word "nonsense". I should have phrased that sentence differently.

There's NHS funding for chaplains?!!!!!!

Surely the church should be big enough(and wealthy enough) to pay for it's own praying on the needy?

I have to go now, RL calls

Sorry, keep doing that, it was spokette

The odd trip to my local RC church always makes me want to vomit. The collection at the end - Crikey, where does it all go? Notice the priest is living more than comfortably...ho hum.

Madbad, sorry, I knew I would have missed someone. I hadn't included you really though, mostly due to your original post;

'I respect the POV of people who want a completely secular education for their children'

But also because your posts seemed to be explaining the system(very well), not necessarily agreeing with it.

You are better at backing away than me!

'In my experience of religion at schools it is a triumph of polite English non-assertiveness'

I can't remember who said the above, way back but it sums up assemblies. I don't think that anyone would find anything objectionable in a school assembly of a non faith school. I would be surprised if most DCs could even tell you what it was about at the end of the day!

i wasn't calling whoever i called a toser, a tosser becasue they disagreed with me, but because they accused me, and those like me who do not want to go to church, of not doing so as we would rather be shopping, the implication being that if you don't take yoru kids to churhc you must be dragging them round te shops at the weekend. that is so insulting to me that i felt compelled to call you a tosser. anyway, god has your back so i'm sure you'll be fine.
alleluia.

MrsMattie - you are good at identifying the killer arguments in relation to this question but then I guess it's the superior secular education that you want to give to us all.

If attending your local RC church makes you vomit have you ever thought about not... as it were... attending; it might just help.

I think by banning what you call "faith schools" you mean voluntary aided schools with a religious character. That is certainly an option - I think what would happen (as in many other EU countries eg Malta and France come to mind) low cost, private religious schools would emerge with probably very strict entry criteria in term of the particular religious affiliation.

Other former "faith schools" would become bog standard community schools - just at the very moment when Labour and Tories are in their different ways trying to get more, not less, diversity into the state system.

People seem to have a preference for faith schools, this is because, on the whole, they are good schools. If you take away the faith part you change the whole nature of the school. It is like killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

I would think that if your DC is exposed to school assemblies and church the majority will turn out to be atheists! I think you will find that many 'born again' Christians are those who had no experience of religion as a DC and were looking for something.

I'm not sure it's the 'faith'ness that makes them good schools - is it not their selectiveness that makes them 'good' schools? (or ones that do well in the SATS?)
The selectiveness is my biggest problem with them, particularly in cities like the one I live in - that i think they increase both inequality and segregation, two of the things which have huge negative impact on all communities in the UK today (inequality affects everyone, not just those living in 'deprived' communities)

Aside from that they are such a huge sham as well! what proportion of people who send their children to faith schools are doing it because they want their children to be exposed to that faith? In fact how many would prefer it if they weren't, as long as the results stayed the same?

It makes me that people are put in this position at all, in some cases to have a conflict between wanting their children to attend a local school in their community that they can walk to, with all their neighbours kids, but not wanting them to be part of a faith school which is the only local option. grrr. where's the equal opportunities in that?

The faith schools that I go into do not select, they are the only school in the area. They do have a special ethos. They collect a few extra from outside the area, if there is space-the same as any other school. Catchment area have first priority.

may I also add at suggestion we don't pay taxes for things we don't use? Never had to use SCBU, so I guess by that logic none of my taxes to go to that? Silly, and shows a complete lack of understanding of the principle of taxation.

There was another thread recently about this. Where some silly dingbat suggested all people who objected to their children going to a CoE school should just move or get them privately educated. Because that is a really practical thing to do.

We pay taxes for education, not religious instruction. The government is a secular body operating within the constraints of a religious legacy in education. Those with religious affilations should thank their lucky stars they are pandered to by the state.

Should be like france.

The government isn't a secular body-this is the whole point! It is HM's government and she is also the Head of the church of England. The prime Minister appoints bishops.I think there is a lot more to connect the two-I don't know enough about it. England isn't a secular country. Cof E is the state religion. State schools follow the state religion.

I take your point Pisces. But it does have to operate at a secular level in most other points of government.

Yes-but the religious legacy in education comes directly from the fact that we have a state religion.

Indeed it does, I think I made that point. But it doesn't make it fair or appropriate.