any studies on private education value for money?

[beforesunrise]

I know there's all the statistics about the % of people in power etc coming from private schools (actually btw can anyone like some actual studies, as I keep seeing references but I'd like to read the source material). But i was wondering if there are any studies showing the return on schooling investment, ie the salary differential of private school educated people vs state educated. I know such studies exist in America, anything here in the UK?

thanks in advance

Hi there, I just thought I'd write a response, since I think I have a unique insight into both state and private education. I went to a comprehensive, not a particularly good one. The classes were big, the teachers were stressed, a lot of my class mates were from deprived backgrounds. I didn't enjoy school, but left with good GCSEs through sheer hard work. I went on to do A levels, did well, went to uni, did well, and am now doing a doctorate. So, I don't think my education at a comp did any particular damage, but neither was it inspirational. As a hard worker, I was often ignored as the teachers were trying to control the kids who were playing up. I had always excelled in English but this was never really noticed until the 3rd year, then nothing was really done to push me at all. I was also experiencing a lot of problems at home and out of school - taking drugs, running away from home, you name it, I did it. Looking back, it was obvious from how I looked and behaved that something was up, but school never did anything.

Interestingly, my two younger step-sisters who I grew up with in the same house, were privately educated at the insistence of their father (my step-father). My older brother and I have watched them go through their privileged private education from a young age. It has been hard, to be experiencing one type of education and to see your siblings have another, so I know my thoughts on this matter are not remotely objective. However, they are both young ladies now, and they have the plummy drawl of the posh. Their lives could not be more different to mine, despite having grown up in the same house. They have a confidence and self-assurance that I have only ever seen in the privately educated - I've met a lot of their friends and they all have these boomingly loud posh voices. Their confidence is quite extraordinary, and not particularly attractive (to me). The small class sizes meant they had a lot of personal attention, and I think this did their self esteem a lot of good. I think generally they were probably pushed harder and there was a lot more overt pressure on them to achieve academically.

God I could write about this forever! Must keep it brief.

Basically, despite the glaring differences and some of the more positive aspects of their education in comparison to mine, I'm not sure how much better of they are as a result of it. Sure, if they want to become lawyers or doctors or some other similar career, then they have plenty of connections that you just would not have otherwise. That can be invaluable for many people, and is not something to be underestimated. However, one of my sisters didn't do particularly well in her A levels, despite class sizes of a maximum of 8, £100,000s spent on her education and extra tuition. So I think academically, they are no better off. In fact, my sister who is currently in the final year of her degree had such an appallingly bad writing style that she struggled to write essays until I gave her some tuition - I get the impression she had been used to being spoon fed information, whereas I had never been taught in that way and had to work a lot of things out for myself, which has been a great strength since.

I will never know how different I would have been had I had their education experience, but I do know that my education has not left me worse off in the long run. What I don't have is the connections and rich friends. I don't want rich friends, but knowing a few people at the 'top' might be nice! Oh, and I don't have a Sloany drawl either, thank god.

Sorry if this was no help! Just waffle really...

I think it's fascinating what effect these things have on people and people have always been interested. The Prince and the Pauper, stories about poor people who swap lives with young princes or whatever, changelines, families who fall on hard times etc. My daughter had a friedn who had to leave the private school at 11. They were both as clever as each other. I would love to know what the other did. Last I heard she was struggling with GCSEs at a state Catholic school and probably didn't go to university but I may be wrong. If you're very bright some people will pull through whatever education they have. Also my private school was not for clever girls and most did not go to university. That also has an effect and my brother's did. That's one reason I also wanted my children in a school that was better in the private system. I wanted a choir in school. I wanted girls who were fairly bright like me so we could spark ideas off each other not find my essays were being read to the class as an example. On the other hand I was very shy and my parents thought ni a small school I would do better and did it do me good to be the best in the school? May be it did. Who can say really. A lot of how we turn out is genetic and a whole load of other factors.

My children haven't gone to posh private schools, just very academic day ones with lots of children who aren't that well off although of course the parents or grandparents or wider immigrant family are paying fees or a scholarship is so I don't think they particularly acquired posh accents although they don't speak cockney I suppose.

The interesting things covered above writes to me ( privately educated whose family are indeed lawyers and doctors almost exclusively) what is described is indeed something I would want for the chidlren I suppose because it's more comforting if our children are reasonably like us although I genuinely don't mind what the five of them end up doing. I suppose plenty of families historically and even now folow their parents - mother an actress, chidlren so. Father's family been chimney sweeps for generations or miners or policemen or in the army or whatever and children are. It can cause a gulf if you educate your children away from you so they are different and don't fit in any more with the family. But now I sound like - "I know my place" - Monty Python sketch about class. Many a very poor clever child was ni a sense psychologically damaged in being moved from its family's class into the middle class and then finding it didn't have things in common with them anymore, a gulf developed.

coveredinsnot - I had the exact reverse of yoru experience. I went to private school and my two sisters did not.

Your observation about confidence is interesting. I think that private schools do gove their pupils that confidence they cando anything while many state school children are limited by what teh stae provides.

A friend of ours who comes into contact witha lot of private and state school childrens says that is a very noticable difference even at a very young age between Prep school and Primary school children.

That said, it is clear in m mind that any goven child in a good state school can do better academically than the same child in a bad private school and of course a brght child will do better academically in a good state school than a less bright child in a good private school.

Where I think private schools generally do better is in the rounding out of the child outside the classroom. Making them a more mature person peron.

I have seen this from the other side, ABetaDad. I went to a comp and longed to be sent to boarding school (I read far too much Enid Blyton), but I was quite shocked when I arrived at university to discover how narrow the minds of many privately-educated students seemed.

They really had very little understanding of wider society and had happily embraced their parents' politics with little thought. No-one had ever challenged their prejudices, whilst my state sixth form was full of cut and thrust. Lord, they must have thought I was a pain in the arse!

thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies. it's great to read your experiences, and i really appreciate people's honest in relating their own story

or maybe their own history, even...

ABetaDad that is interesting to read what you have written, particularly that you think private schools do better at 'rounding' children out. I think on one hand this is true, simply through broader experiences (for example, my sisters went on field trips to France, India, to name a few, whereas we went on one field trip in 5 years, 10 miles away!). That is where you see the difference in what money can get you. Whether that makes you a more rounded person, however, I'm not so sure. My impression is that people who are privately educated exist in a bubble, heavily protected from much of real life. I think this results in quite a stark difference in terms of how quickly privately educated children mature. My sisters, now both in their early twenties, are vastly less mature and less independent than I was at their age. I'm not sure whether this is a good or a bad thing, or simply just a point of difference. But it is massively noticeable.

Also, the other thing that strikes me as being hugely different is the physical closeness of my sisters with their friends. I think this must come from actually having lived together, bathing, going to the loo, doing all those daily things together can be very bonding.

And this also makes me wonder how strange it must be as a parent to send your child off to a boarding school, to pay someone else to raise them - because this is, in effect, what you are doing (obviously doesn't apply to non-boarders!). I know a lot of people will find this statement offensive, but I really do think you are entering into a completely different realm of parenting when you do not see your children on a daily basis. You are sharing your parenting with people you don't know, and this is a huge decision to make, and not one I would feel comfortable with.

The point that Xenia makes about creating a gulf within a family if sending children to private education is a step into a different social class, is a very important point. My sisters and I will never see eye to eye, despite having grown up together. This is a huge issue at home, and an unspoken one. I'm not sure what this would feel like as a parent, perhaps it would be ok given that you had chosen it, perhaps not.

Anyway, more waffle...!

If the parents can change class as my mother who was very clever and did very successfully then the gulf isn't there though she kept us apart from her 52 first cousins in mining villages in the NE or England and the difference at her funeral when we saw some of her family was so interesting. Obviousyl people are people and some are clever and some not whatever thier class but everything from our accents, to how we talk to what we wear was so starkly contrasted. So there wasn't a gulf with our mother as she moved class herself but perhaps there was with her family from whom in effect she separated from except in later life she did go back to seeing some of them but only on her own.

I hate boarding schools and I've seen the produts of some and I think some of that narrowminded ness is from there not from the types of school which in fact ge the best exam results anyway, the day academic schools like my children went to North London collegiate, Haberdashers etc Those like Manchester grammar although they chareg day school fees they aren't really properly posh so I think they are a good compromise. You also get very mixed political views in those schools and none of my chilren have ever much agreed with me. I would be appalled if they followed some cloning plan via their schooling. Although I want them to love learning and be rounded, have lots of hobbies I certainly don't want them to mirror me entirely in terms of views. It's interseting that one of my chidlren was saying a lot of her friends' mothers don't work and their views on working mothers etc are very different from hers - now that's because of influence at home not school. She is much more feminist, much more wanting to gain satisfiaction from work rather than housewifery than some of those who simply want to marry well or not so well and bake cakes at home or more likely wipe bottoms at home and look after a man.

I think the bonding between peers at boarding school is a substitute because your parents rejected you by sending you there and some of those chidlren are emotionally damaged because they learned that if someone loves you they send you away. taht's why boarding isn't anything like as popular as it was and given the boarding schools on the whole get worse exam results than the day academdic private school with a few excpetions you are paying so your child will be psycohlogically damaged and get a worse educatnio!

Can I just have a quick GRRR at Xenia's sweeping generalisations re boarding schools. My DC go to a boarding school (as day students) and our particular one is fabulous. How can you, on the one hand, say that boarding schools are narrowminded (they have pupils from all over the country and the world!) and, on the other hand, keep going on about how wonderful Habs etc are because they are full of North London, academically-minded DC just like yours!
So, we are narrowminded but you are selective?

beforesunrise

Researchers at the Centre for the Economics of Education have used data on earnings, social class and education to distinguish the effects of private schooling from other advantages that students at such schools may enjoy (such as having richer, better-educated parents). Those who left private schools in the 1980s and early 1990s can expect to earn 35% more in life than the average product of a state school, they found, around half of which can be attributed to education, not background. That, they calculated, means parents achieved an average 7% return on their investment in fees.

Private education, Is it worth it?
Feb 28th 2008, From The Economist print edition, As the cost of private schools soars, we look at what parents get for their money

www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10766267

For many interesting reports

cee.lse.ac.uk/pubs/default.asp

Is this not the most telling sentence in the Economist article?

'Once they compared state- and private-school leavers with identical qualifications, the earnings premium disappeared.'

ABetaDad what does your friend think is the difference between primary and prep children? My ds is in pre-prep and so far I haven't seen any differences between him and his primary school friends.

I agree thedolly. I assume therefore I am paying for my ds to develop a posh booming voice as described by coveredinsnot! Although some would say he already had that before he started school.

I also strongly disagree with Xenia's idea of parents rejecting their children by sending them to boarding school. What utter rubbish.

I know people who loved and hated boarding school and equally I know people who loved and hated day school. If my ds wanted to go to boarding school then I would gladly encourage it confident in the knowledge that he wouldn't be psychologically damaged.

MollieO

Give it two years and you will.

xyzbee, thanks for the excellent link. it's exactly what i was looking for, including the bit at the end about taking the "riskier" route!!!

coveredinsnot - I agree that a gulf in educational choice can cause problems within families.
My extended family is all working class and I am the only one who went to uni or moved away at all.
Everyone seemed fairly pleased for me until I sent my DCs to independent school. Suddenly I am expected to defend my choice whenever we meet up which is, frankly, boring. Cousins who are right wing bigots are almost communist when it comes to education.
If I hear one more time, 'it won't make them clever.'
Oh really? And there was me assuming my fees would make my children clever, beautiful and a few feet taller.

ABetaDad what sort of differences should I expect? I'm curious as the background (income/level of parental support etc) of ds and his friends is similar and will remain so.

'Once they compared state- and private-school leavers with identical qualifications, the earnings premium disappeared.'

Why is that telling? The private schools tend to add more value and ensure the children get better grades and therefore that's one reason they do better so I don't think that sentence means private schools aren't worth it.

MollieO - the observation that my friend makes is that the Prep school kids seem on average more articulate and confident than primary school kids.

The observation that is often made at the other end of the age range during University interviews is that children from Comprehensives do less well than kids from independent school often because they are just less well trained in expressing themselves and less confident in doing so even if they are of the same academic standard.

My wife was from Grammar school background and she has often said she felt that when she got to University people who had been at independent school were able to express themselves better and seemed more confident. Again, this says nothing about comparative intellect.

People who come across as articulate and confident are i suppose likely to come across better in interview on average and I suppose will get the better jobs on average. How much better is hard to tell and does that make independent school worth the money? I am genuinely not sure.

I often question whether my own kids independent school is worth the money. I am certainly looking for a lot more for my money than nice sports facilities thats for sure.

The kids at my dc's independent school are far more articulate than their peers at the local primary where I volunteer.
Obviously, I don't know the intellect of every child but I can't believe the kids at the former are simply brighter than the later by dint of their parents' cash.
Does the private school foster this? To some extent yes. The classes are much smaller and public speaking is a rigorous part of the curiculum but much of it comes from home too. If parents are themselves articulate, if books and words form an important part of their lives, as does discussion, then obviously children emulate that.
If home life and school both foster this skill then that is a huge advantage.
Confidence is key. Being clever is great but so many things in life take real balls. Everything from leading a case at the Baily to diving in the deep end requires self-belief. A faith in your own abilities.
If I could bottle it I would give it to every one of my reading group.

Xenia - I suppose it depends whether or not DC are clever to begin with. If they are thick average then they'll do better in the private sector.

If they're clever, they might do better in the private sector, too. Not in terms of grades necessarily, but in terms of having their minds expanded and challenged. At least, that was my experience of the very best of private education.

Confidence is vitally important ! Since my DS1 has gone to an indelendent school his confidence has increased, (not because he is now a priveliged 'toff'!) because he now does not have to to hide his interest in learning, because interest in learning is valid! He has grown visibly, and people comment on it, becuase he doesn't have to hide his intellect any more. I just WISH all kids who want to learn could have that opportunity, but where we live, you have to pay fees to get that.. if the 'ROI' is 7% - fantastic, but even if 0 or negative, we will still pay it.

I think there is a fine line between being articulate/confident and arrogant. Not sure it is a trait I'd welcome in my ds. He is already confident and articulate beyond his years. I hope they teach them humility as well!

MolieO - do you have any real personal experience of private schools?

I just get the sense you simply don't like the idea of private education and think that they should be shut down?

I went to state primary and then to a second rate private school that was not as good as the Grammar school next door that I was not eligible for as I lived outside the catchment area.

My wife went to a local primary and then Grammar school in a really deprived area of the North East.

Me and my wife have seen both sides of the state/private fence and if we had the good luck to have a good state school near where we live we would not send out kids private at all.

It really is not a case for most parents of 'wanting' private schooling - its a case of making a choice they can barely afford out of less than ideal set of circumstances.

I apologise if I misread the tone of what you are saying.