any studies on private education value for money?

[beforesunrise]

I know there's all the statistics about the % of people in power etc coming from private schools (actually btw can anyone like some actual studies, as I keep seeing references but I'd like to read the source material). But i was wondering if there are any studies showing the return on schooling investment, ie the salary differential of private school educated people vs state educated. I know such studies exist in America, anything here in the UK?

thanks in advance

"Few schools are in this for the sake of the children. "

That seems a big generalisation! Amd sp far, fortunately I guess, this is not my experience in either sector.

I'm not being sceptical, ds has been in the private system for 5 years. There are alot of horror stories out there, there's alot of money to be made by this. By all means, look around as much as you can, just remember that they may not always tell you what their problems are, they all have them from behaviour of the children to staff turnover.

I accept your experiences may have been negative.

But I just wanted to give the other side really that we have nothing but positive experiences, and neither do the people we know of who have used the private sector over the last few years at primary and secondary level.

I have worked in the state sector too and I now that persoanlly we get value for money with DD's private education.

I did school visits when my ds was 3 and I reckon I knew his character and personality very well by then. He was at nursery so maybe that makes a difference in knowing what sort of school environment would suit him. I had the benefit of my own knowledge of him as his mum and also his nursery teacher's evaluation of him at termly info sessions.

He is very bright, very opinionated, independent-minded and with poor gross motor skills. I chose a school that was academic without being pushy and one that ensured every child got to play team sports no matter how bad they were. Also chose somewhere with small class sizes and good discipline. Perfect match for ds. He is 4.5 and couldn't wait to go back to school today, even though he had been at school holiday club all of last week.

One thing I did with all the school visits was to take ds with me and do private visits with the head rather than school open days. I wanted to get a real feel of the school and also see what my ds thought of it. Fortunately my ds agreed with my choice of school but what I thought would be a difficult decision was surprisingly easy.

It's good that your experiences have been positive.

I also took DD with me on our school visits. i wanted to see how the school staff would interact with her - esp seeing as it was her they would be teaching, not me.

I know almost instantly which school would be right for DD from the various ones we visited. So far we are being prived right. I think there is a lot to be said for gut instinct.

i would never have the confidence to categorise my dd at age 3. And while she's at nursery, I don't expect her teachers to give me any earth shattering insights into her, other that she's doing allt he things they expect of her. Sure I think she's amazing etc, but I am not objective!

I think at this stage I am choosing the kind of school that I would want her to go to, based parlty on the kind of child and adult I want her to grow into. Given I am her mum and I have her best interest at heart, and I love her, I hope that means I will chose wisely. But there have been schools I have visited where I have thought- good god no, i'd never want her to be like that!

Hulababy I agree with gut instinct and seeing how the staff interact with your dc.

Ds was a poorly prem so I was always amazed to hear what he was capable of doing at nursery. He also had a childminder who of course followed the early years curriculum. I suppose I was lucky that he was in such nurturing and sympathetic environments. He is an individual and will grow up that way probably regardless of where he is educated but I want him to enjoy the journey as much as the end result.

I've been looking for somewhere like that Mollie, my son is the same, very, very bright, far too opinionated but needs stretching. Schools that can support children like this are few and far between as they don't fit in the 'box' so to speak IYKWIM.

You never get ROI, it doesn't work like that.

My DH and brother were privately educated. One went into academia, and the other went to live in Australia in a commune. I 'think' their mother is proud of them.

What was bought perhaps was 'choices', but not guaranteed salary.

I've just read the Sutton report with interest, however I do think schools have changed since the surveyed cohort were there. I think state schools have got worse and independents better. You can no longer get into schools like Eton if your rich and thick, and on the whole the curriculum is more broad and rigorous than at state schools.

beforesunrise, please don't take this the wrong way, but you are looking for outcomes that can't be guaranteed.

There are far too many variables in this game.

What I am looking for as an outcome for my dd, for example, is a real education (for its own sake) and confidence.

Value for money can really only be seen in terms of what you are getting during their time at a particular school, and even then is subjective.

Future variables also cannot be predicted and statistics (which is what you want) are going to meaningless in the individual case.

The naked stats will tell you that privately educated children get a disproportinate amount of top grades at GCSE and A levels and then take up a disproportionate number of places at 'elite' universities.
They are also over represented in the city and other well paid professions. Conversely they are also disproportinately represented in the arts.
But, there is no guarantee that any particular child will reach those outcomes just as there is no gurantee that any kid at an outstanding state school will acheive outstanding results.
You are essentially paying for choice or, as has been said on many occassions of MN, an advantage. Whether your child or mine makes the best of that advantage is quite another thing. You can lead a horse to water and all that.

thanks. as i have said before, i was looking for a report to assist me in making the decision. i will not be basing my decision solely on reading the sutton report, anymore than i will base it solely on reading Xenia's posts (which i find riveting, by the way)

I do have a basic understanding of statistical analysis (well, if all those years of postgraduate economics were worth the time and money sorry I keep banging on about money today!) and so i of course understand that an average result has no bearing on the individual outcome. I also understand that a good education is a lot more than just grades or career- but grades and career are a component of it. or else we'd all send our children to nursery to play and have a good time till they're 18!

The naked stats are quite powerful and point to independent education buying a significant and undisbutable headstart in life. there's no denying it. and while it is possible to measure monetary success, it is not possible to quantify happiness or job satisfaction, so clearly i need to look for other indicators for that (such as visiting schools, talking to parents etc etc)

I just don't get why my request for information generates so much disagreement. Perhaps it is distasteful to talk about money, but private education is a product, a complex, emotional, and extremely personal product, but a product nonetheless- and it has a price attached.

I think what I'd really interested to know would be whether the same children would have the same outcomes without private education.
I see the kids in my DCs school and they have every advantge in life - not just the wonderful environment in which they learn. Loving, interested parents, huge comfortable homes in the countryside brimming with books, fridges heaving with wonderful food, access to the best healthcare...
I'm sure if I were to revisit them all at thirty most would have acheived their full potential. But would they have done that without the expensive education?

agree litchick- that's the real question. i think the answer is probably yes, and would love to see studies backing that up...

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My dd's state school has a very high % of girls going on to university or other F/H education, and the last OFSTED said that the girls are 'outstanding ambassadors for their generation" Not sure how you would quantify that in financial terms, but that's what I want for my children!

Whether there is really a correlation between a child's school and salarie I suspect is moot. Far more likely that those factors are scio-economic and/or cultural.
That said, I don't share the middle class disdain for considering money as important. I was brought up in very impoverished circumstances and learned from aline of hard working, underpaid women that poverty and happiness are not natural bedfellows.
I suspect if we are honest most of us hope that our children will achieve financial independence, that they will buy a house, afford a family of their own, pursue hobbies, travel, enjoy themselves. Well all of this requires a certain level of income that will have to be attained. Factor into that the hope that your child will have a pension worth having and perhaps the luxury of some security and he or she really will have to earn a decent wage which, incidentally, I don't see as excluding an interesting job.

basically what you are saying, litchick, is that you come from a middle class background where education is valued and supported you will do well regardless (in statistical terms)- although indep schooling will give you a further boost.

of course while salary is not the only component of a person's happiness, the converse is clearly true- lack of money is unlikely to foster happiness.

I suppose that a good salary (we're not talking stellar city money- a thing of the past anyway, i suspect) is not that important if you have family money or established wealth to fall back on. But as it is unlikely we will be able to bequeath much to our dcs, it seems that giving the best possible education and thus the opportunity for the best possible life (whatever that means) is really our responsibility.

all of which does not mean that i would chose a school over another purely in temrs of salary or even grades or university attendance, of course. to me, really this is the same conversation as "if dc goes to school X, will he get into Oxbridge", which i suppose is more tasteful.

anyway- the flippant line is- if i am going to invest 300k into my children's education (GASP!) i want to make sure they are at least capable of buying me a nice birthday present when i am old

btw bloss- there is a clear correlation between the quality of education and how much people earn. just ask your local supermarket checkout people where they went to school/Uni, and then ask all your lawyer/ banker/doctor friends.

I think you are being disingenous here. I don't expect you wish your dcs to become "altruistic and thoughtful" individuals who are unable to support themselves, start a family, etc etc. you may not want or care whether they become millionaires, but i don't think you wish them a life of poverty and financial hardship.

I doubt very much that you will find meaningful statistics because
a) these things are usually commissioned by those who want an answer to fit their agenda
b) the question is too complicated: eg by State do you mean comp or Grammar, have you taken into account family background, have you factored in the hidden effect of tutoring etc etc

Also, all data is historical. What held true in the past may not hold true now.

HTH (I know it doesn't!)

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If you are looking for a return on your investment this indicates that you will be looking for a certain performance from your child - this could create a certain amount of pressure for your child.

indeed there's a tipping point when high expectations become pressure, but any reasonable parent should be able to manage it.
I grew up with the understanding that my parents hoped against hope that I would go to university ( no-one in either family or social circle had ever done this). From being five it was spoken about as an outright certainty. Yet I never once felt it as a burden.