Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

@baital - you clearly understand how the system here works and you clearly could have given that poster some tips as to how to apply now and what to do, along the lines I gave them, instead of goading them further, when clearly they are stressed. That is what I am objecting too. This is a parenting site, we are supposed to be helping each other, in a helpful way. That poster needs advice on how best to go about applying to state schools now. Not admonishing for choosing the wrong private school.

I don't think there is anything to advise. As I understand it they have now applied, and are on waiting lists.

Those waiting lists will move over the next 6 months.

If their children end up without a place when school starts in September then raise it with your MP.

They didn't apply in time for a place at one of the usual application points (neither did i). If the LA doesn't meet their legal obligations then take it further. But right now it's a waiting game

It is a late application for Reception at this point, rather than an in-year application. That means they may get a place offered after the initial allocation in April. So it is a waiting game until then. Like I said, if they have an older child in Year 3 or above, they can also try and appeal local schools now to optimise their chances of getting two kids into the same school. It is quite an important point.

I suppose when you are used to privilege then having to wait, just as us plebs do, seems unfair

What a spiteful and unnecessary comment.

Yet in the implication of your sneering messages is that PP was an idiot with only herself to blame for not having applied for a state school place when she knew (or rather, believed) she didn’t need one.

So according to you, applying for and sitting on state school place for as long as possible, just in case, is exactly what private school parents should be doing…right…?

No. If you think you might need one then apply.

If you know you won't, and are just doing it to make a point, then the people you are hurting are not the politicians, it's other parents.

If you find yourself, unexpectedly, having to apply outside the normal time frames you have to cope with uncertainty. And if your child ends up.out of school take action. But before then you have to wait.

I'm seriously considering private from year 5 onwards for my kids, that's the latest I want to risk it in the state system and it will give them time to catch up with their peers before senior school starts. We'd be looking to do it from year 3 onwards but the introduction of VAT has encouraged us to hang on to our state places for an extra couple of years to balance out the costs. Some private schools are cost cutting to help reduce fees and keep their numbers up. I don't think that state schools will ultimately gain much from this short sighted decision, in fact labour might have shot themselves in the foot somewhat. I'd like to see the VAT removed, really we should be thanking parents who self fund their child's education, not penalising them!

I will also be hanging on to my state place until the last minute, just incase labour decide to further penalise the sector. It feels safer to do this whilst we watch how it all plays out.....

Normally school won't hold the position for a long time. If they assign you a position, you need to respond whether accept or not. Otherwise it will be released.

Yes but do you have to tell them of your intention to leave in the first place? Shouldn't be a problem where we live anyway, the school is pretty average and they have plenty of spaces.

Depends whether you are applying for the normal entry points or an in year transfer. If the former then places are being allocated tomorrow for secondary and in April for reception. So if you did apply you can hang on to the place until the first few days of term in September, just in case - happy days! Handy and it means private school parents can see what fee rises are being brought in for Sep before finally deciding.

Though not so great if it means another family has to wait until then for the place to be released, but what’s a little more collateral damage from this policy eh?!

Anyway, its interesting that private school parents are now being positively encouraged to do this by the like of @Baital

Keeping options open comes at a cost though because private schools demand deposits and on top of that a term’s notice so if you change your mind and go state after all, very late in the day, you are legally on the hook for the first term’s fees if you don’t tell them a whole term in advance.
And there is my next question, is there VAT payable on notice periods?! A not performed service…

For most of us affected need in-year transfer - Normal entry point is reception, year 3 and year7. Our council can only hold the position for 20 days and cannot apply 6 weeks before the place needed. So if we want to apply for September entry for year 5, we cannot make application before July.

It’s interesting to see that across the many, many, many VAT threads, there is often a handful of posters who post prolifically on just one of the threads and then vanish. I can’t help wondering if a spot of name changing goes on between VAT threads. Obviously this is entirely allowed and within MN rules - but I do wonder why? What’s the motivation? Just my own curious thoughts and I could well be wrong! I’ll get my hard hat on. 🙂

There is an AI language and syntax checker you could use, if you are most curious @CatkinToadflax - in the interests of science

@Araminta1003 don't worry, I’m not that curious! 😄 I suspect a few of us have noticed it though.

@CatkinToadflax ive definitely noticed it. There’s a poster who appears every now and then with different names on education threads claiming be a very successful business person who tells us that he/she never hires anyone privately educated and as a result her/his business has become far more successful.
They don’t answer any questions about their business or hiring methods but just continue repetitively to lecture on the ghastliness of the privately educated.

In due course, we will probably get posts along the lines of “I am so grateful to the Labour Party for showing me the light! I got my DC into the local top comp/top grammar and it is wonderful. I can finally cut back my working hours to a 3 day week and afford skiing holidays again. Thank you so much! There was never any need to work that hard and strive so much and be so stressed. I should have relaxed all along and did what was easiest for my family.”

This is just not a thing. I'm sorry but private schools both open and close . Over the last decade an average of 77 close a year.

46 closed last year as of October. After the new government was elected with VAT as a very clear manifesto pledge.

Of those closures 6% blamed it on VAT but the reality is not so simple. They were all operating at less than 75% capacity. Many at less than 50%. The pandemic had a much more serious effect on private school numbers than the VAT policy.

Add to that the 90 private schools issued an 'failing' notices by the Independent Schools Inspectorate and I would suggest this is a much more realistic reason for closure than a 20% rise - which will not cripple the vast majority of private school parents. - after all , when one pays for a service, you have choice . Why would anyone choose to pay fees to a school that is failing ? This 'choice' of course is not available to state school parents if their local school is failing - as you get what you are given.

Your OP 'Whitehall Braced for private schools collapse' has absolutely no credible source to support this overt scaremongering.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-schools-warning-notices/list-of-independent-schools-that-have-been-issued-warning-notices

18 closing since 1t Jan this year is 3 x 'average' amount and the 77 quoted is incorrect.
Schools are facing an unprecedented 3 fold attack: VAT + increased NI + increased business rates.
Most indy schools work on tight margins + surplus of approx 1 term
What other organisation could "cope" with this this triple whammy considering over 50% have charitable status and therefore are not for profit?

As the quote marks make clear, the title of this thread is not intended as an assertion of fact by me. It comes from The Times, which is in turn quoting the ISC. They very clearly have skin in the game so no one is saying they’re impartial, but I’m not sure anyone can credibly suggest they’re not a “credible source”…

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=3d4efdfcd1c47fa964f44ded79e50c17

Ah well, we can all look forward to reading the non existent robust official government analysis and statistics on school closures and the impact of VAT thereon or otherwise, can’t we? 🙄

Not a thing? Just to be clear, you don’t think the mid school year 20% education tax is having any impact on schools?
LOL I genuinely can’t understand how people who think like this manage to get through a working day, drive a car, pay bills etc.

@Talkwhilstyouwalk "I'm seriously considering private from year 5 onwards for my kids, that's the latest I want to risk it in the state system and it will give them time to catch up with their peers before senior school starts"

Shame- this thread has been mostly free of offensive comments. Oh, well.

It’s not a triple whammy though is it.

By the look of the table just posted the biggest thing that looks like it has had an impact is Liz Truss crashing the economy.

In the 6 months leading up to Labour getting in and the 6 months after when people on here have repeatedly been saying that parents are already pulling kids out of school in fear of Labour getting in or have pulled them out for this academic year once Labour got in the number of independent school closures halved from the year before.
Highlighting every school closure as being due to VAT or claiming that the VAT is the straw that broke the camels back isn’t helping much either.

@RafaistheKingofClay "Highlighting every school closure as being due to VAT or claiming that the VAT is the straw that broke the camels back isn’t helping much either"

This.

A quick look at the accounts of closing schools invariably shows a history of falling rolls and financial difficulties. As, for example, The Royal School mentioned earlier. It's been in trouble for pushing a decade.