Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

Er yes the whole premise of VAT is faux concern about perceived "privilege". Just look at any of the press about it/posts on here. We get constantly attacked for buying "privilege".
I think you are being highly disingenuous to say otherwise.

It’s depressing to see. But really these Labour policies aren’t stacking up. They are limiting growth and we’re onto welfare and other cuts due to that.

The VAT idea is a get the rich idea that brought in votes but won’t help state education, it’ll just close schools and disrupt students. I’m surprised people look at the cuts Labour are bringing in and still back the policies leading to it.

It's pretty clear that the purpose of VAT on education is:

To raise £££ bonanza because that's what a dodgy incredibly-well-evidenced IFS report said.
Not to raise £££ bonanza because it's about reducing privilege, which leads us to...

To discourage posh people from going private thus removing privilege.
Not to discourage posh people from going private so that £££ bonanza is raised, which leads us to...

To pay for state school supplies and services because it'll provide the manifesto-promised 0.3 teachers and 1 pack of cornflakes per school.
Not to pay for state school supplies and services because everybody knows taxes aren't hypothecated, which leads us to...

???

As far as I've seen, the purpose of VAT on private education is:
a) to throw a bone to the disgruntled hard-left of the Labour party, who are getting very little of what they want as the party leadership drifts steadily to the right, in the interests of party unity.
b) to pad out an unambitious and otherwise very empty manifesto from a leadership that is largely devoid of ideas and vision, and to give them a few soundbites and talking points in the run-up to an election that they'd probably have won anyway due to the implosion of their only realistic opposition.
c) to pretend to many gullible voters that they would be "soaking the rich" and had a credible plan to raise enough to improve public services without raising taxes that would impact take-home pay, which is a disingenuous fantasy.
d) to create the illusion that they were on the side of "ordinary working people", at the very time that they were accepting tens of thousands of freebies from mega-rich donors.

@twistyizzyOh, I am opposed to buying privilege and in My Glorious Reign private education is going to be illegal. But that’s not what VAT on private education is about.@LeakyRadI’m happy to discuss this issue with you-but I’m not happy to respond to posts like yours.

CurlewKate · Today 09:27
Oh, I am opposed to buying privilege and in My Glorious Reign private education is going to be illegal

Would you also ban parents from educating their children at private schools abroad? What about home schooling where parents paid for tutors?

It’s the boarding fee minus the day fee as what is being discussed is why state boarding has no VAT and private boarding does.

How condescending can you get?! Please don't deign to tell me what it is/isn't about, I've been on the receiving end of all the abuse over last 18 months.

My feelings are deeply hurt 🤨

I don't get why private education is vilified in a way that private healthcare isn't. That's the closest comparator - I have no issue with either beyond the scenarios of money not always buying a better service (in both schools & hospitals) and people choosing the wrong option - largely in healthcare in terms of unnecessary private care, scans and poor quality surgery abroad (terrible problem). Why is the such a difference in attitudes? It's such a similar scenario.

Both the NHS and state schools are struggling.
Some people will always prefer the private option whether that's health or schools.
Both private options are v expensive
The state may be as good or better than private and it's hard to know in advance.

Why the vitriol against private schools but not private hospitals? Both are very definitely buying privilege - but realistically no more privilege than someone lucky enough to have a good state option.

I’m curious to hear any counter-arguments to this, because as far as I can see @lebr1 has nailed it completely.

LOL - there’s a “gleeful” thread in AiBU at the moment where the pro VAT posters make it very clear that their main beef with private education is people buying privilege and that is what they hope this policy does.

I’m also intrigued as to your making private education illegal idea. Does that extend to sports coaching, piano lessons, the nice ?online music theory tutor in Denmark I employ?

what about all the kids at Mineva or Kings Interhigh? The kids being tutored on film sets and at Olympic training camps? Can I live in the UK and just send Little Johnny to Eton-sur-Loire?

@twistyizzyWhy is it condescending for me to tell you what VAT is about but not for you to tell me?

@OhCrumbsWhereNowif you want to send your child abroad for private education fill your boots. Sports coaching and music lessons are not part of compulsory education. If I could, I would ban or heavily regulate private tutoring because (IMHO) much of it is playing on parental insecurities and amounts to a scam. But that’s for another thread! Obviously there would have to be exceptions for child actors and so on. I’ll iron out the details when I sweep into power.

Er I refer you to the current thread where the OP is "gleeful" and their main opposition to independent schools is "privilege".
As someone who is directly impacted, and also involved in the largest parent group opposing this policy, I feel I have a pretty good handle on the subject.
Every article/post on the topic centres around perceived "privilege" that independent schools give. The rank hypocrisy is ridiculous in light of the very clear "privilege" many state schools confer to their pupils.

The fact you choose to claim otherwise is your perogative but i ask you to look back over every single thread on this topic then come back and tell me that public perceptions, and any support for the policy, arent around "privilege".

I also ask again, please point me in the direction of any politicians who is trying to address the inequality in the state sector. I don't mean faffing around with unfunded breakfast clubs, I mean really trying to tackle the systemic inequality highlighted in the Sutton Trust report.

Great post @twistyizzy but you forgot to mention all of the witty comments about tiny violins and diamond shoes.

How about for SEN kids who need maths concepts explained over and over and over and there is no facility for that within a normal classroom?

I’ve been paying a maths tutor experienced with SEN every week since November mocks. She’s already gone up 3 grades in March mocks.

The state probably won’t have to fund her resit next year now.

i could have asked DH of course…he got A stars in Maths and Further Maths A Level, a 1 in STEP and an Oxbridge degree, But he’s not the greatest teacher.

Would you ban him from teaching his child too?

If not, why is it fair that some children have educated parents and can get stuff for free?

Why is an overseas private school fine but a UK one not? So all the top public schools buy a nice castle each in Ireland, Ireland makes a ton of money and parents enjoy a nice trip over to collect offspring in the hols.

I assume the pp isn’t in politics so we should be ok. If Labour are out at next GE the VAT is likely to be reversed.

@twistyizzyyou can’t expect me to defend other posters. If I have been “gleeful” or talked about “tiny violins” then point me to my posts and I will grovel. I say that the levying of VAT is not about attacking privilege because that’s the policy makers pov, not other posters on here. Threads on here about private/state schools often turn pretty unpleasant on both sides and many posts are best ignored.

"The levying of VAT is not about attacking privilege because that’s the policy makers pov". Actually you're right and wrong at the same time, their pov is to close independent schools because they don't want freedom of choice, they want all kids in 1 size fits all state comps. The language they use however is 100% attacking "privilege", you only have to look at the content of speeches/tweets etc.
They are using divisive language around privilege in order to stir up class warfare to hide behind. The use of incorrect terns such as "tax breaks" , BPs own attack on "astro pitches" etc ad nauseum, illustrates this.

Hypocritically they are then happy to turn a blind eye to the inequality within state sector, could it be because their own children attend those "privileged" state schools 🤔?

Threads on here about private/state schools often turn pretty unpleasant on both sides and many posts are best ignored.

@CurlewKate yes that is true - yet you asked me for evidence of spiteful comments about posh rich thick kids.

Hypocritically they are then happy to turn a blind eye to the inequality within state sector, could it be because their own children attend those "privileged" state schools 🤔

Thats definitely it - and even if their dc go to poor schools, then they will be in a position to organise tutoring and other advantages.

@twistyizzyNobody wants 1 size fits all schools.

Labour do. Hence attacks on academies, home schooling, independent schools + forcing more SEN into mainstream.

@twistyizzy Are you saying that comprehensive schools are by definition “one size fits all?