Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

So basically in line with most independent schools and zero moral justification for the exemption.

Significantly more expensive in some cases than some independents charge for boarding.

Was quite an interesting exercise - suspect I may have missed a few schools, couldn't find a comprehensive list of them all.

So how does it work? The only pupils at these schools who pay anything are the boarders- are you saying that their boarding fees are subsidising everyone else in the school?

Boarders pay fees that covers the boarding side. Then you get a bill every term for extras like weekend trips, dry cleaning etc.

Day students just pay for things like lunch, music lessons etc

Exactly the same as at a normal state comprehensive/grammar.

I suspect a percentage of the boarding fees do go on providing better facilities and upkeep of the grounds etc. I don't think it is all spent on cornflakes.

The justification will be that the MOD covers most of it. For Cranbrook, for example, it is just 400 extra per family per term.

Except majority of kids in those schools aren't military. Look at threads about state boarding on MN, zero military but all "sharp elbowed" parents who don't want to fork out for independent boarding schools

Yes I know the reality @twistyizzy but I think they do get priority admissions in many state boarding schools. And it’s an essential service for them. That will be what the Government would argue.
Also an option for some kids in rural areas. But for the rest one could argue it’s a luxury too. They should also just go to their local state school or pay up for their privilege. If that is what private school parents are being told. I have been told on another thread to pay up for my kid choosing to go to a grammar school. What next? You picked an Ofsted outstanding school? Pay double!

I also reported that horrible post about the shootings. It seemed like a reference to school shootings to me.
I suspect it did to a fair few others too.

Are you sure about the boarding fees for the private schools listed here? Pretty sure they are way higher. (c£45- 50 k pa) Or is that just the boarding element with the education element removed?

@OhCrumbsWhereNow Kings Senior School costs around £14500 a term!

@OhCrumbsWhereNow Kings Senior School costs around £14500 a term!

@OhCrumbsWhereNow Kings Senior School costs around £14500 a term!

The Sutton Trust highlighted the huge inequality in state scools in a paper last year. Social segregation within the state sector is at an all time high yet not many people seem bothered. It is these elite state schools used by Keir and his pals so he has no interest in highlighting the inequality.
Blaming independent schools + parents is the smoke and mirrors to hide this.

https://t.co/xnRGOtSfeq

@twistyizzyI don’t think anyone denies that the admission system for state schools is a shambles. I can bore at length on the subject. But that’s not what this thread is about. Makes a good “Oh, would you look at that!” though!

https://www.cityam.com/fighting-to-overturn-cruel-tax-parties-gear-up-for-legal-fight-over-private-school-fees/

I find your post hugely ironic when Labour have used private school taxation as the biggest "Oh, would you look at that" in modern history.

This was a flagship policy despite it never having a hope of being able to raise the amount of money we need to tackle any of the issues facing this country. They knew this of course, but cynically they also knew that most people don't use private schools so would support the policy and they loved the fact that it gave the impression that Labour could dig their way out of the financial mess we find ourselves in by targeting tax rises at the rich. The reality of course has been very different and people feel betrayed that actually Labour have pummelled businesses, cut WFA and now are reforming disability benefits. Funny how these drastic and more wide reaching policies never even made it into the manifesto in the same way that VAT on private schools do.

Of course, they will say that there is an ideological basis for the policy around reducing inequality. This is also an absolute red herring when inequality is so rife in the state system that we all fund and they manage. The vast majority of people are state educated so this where they can make the biggest impact and what should obviously be reformed first. It is just common sense if you are indeed serious about reducing inequality and creating a fairer system! Yet still, we hear nothing about any policy that would even begin to make an impact on this. Instead they employ expensive legal experts to force through the private school tax changes. Labour may well be in for just a single term and this was their big opportunity to make reforms that would make a difference. They have squandered it because they are determined to focus on the tiny percentage of children that are in private schools rather than worry about the vast majority stuck in an unequal and badly managed state school.

Agree @Bumpitybumper

@Bumpitybumper 👏 👏 👏

Brilliant post @Bumpitybumper .

But let’s not forget, “it’s a very popular policy!” Of course it was. It’s nice when other people pay for things, isn’t it. Not entirely convinced why it’s still A Very Popular Policy, though….

Hard agree on inequality in the state sector. There are two state secondaries in my city within a mile of each other. One has over 70% of kids meeting the government standard for results and the other less than 30%. Everyone I know who lives in the catchment for the poorly performing school naturally does their best to avoid it - difficult in Scotland but approaches typically are request placing at a different state primary which feeds into the better school (no guarantee you'll get the better secondary though), save for private secondary or request a place at the Catholic primary - which is undersubscribed, or saving and moving house in time for secondary (usuallt out of town where it's cheaper).

Motivated parents using state education will naturally try and avoid schools with poor results or behaviour- why wouldn't they?

With the right will, the state school system could be reformed very quickly. They simply need more adults in there, 24 kids in a class on average and trained SEND specialists. That into a falling birth rate would solve the issues quite quickly. Add in daily exercise for all kids from an early age and creativity in the afternoons, job done.
All they need to do is follow what has worked in the private sector for many years. But they do not want to invest in the young! Because they do not have a vote. It is as simple as that.

It is 100% relevant to this debate because the justification many make is to prevent access to privilege ie independent schools confer a "privilege" that state schools don't. Those very posters usually won't accept the huge disparity in state sector.
The top state schools in country are almost identical to (and many are way above) many independent schools in terms of cohort, family income etc. You can't attack independent schools without having a long hard look at the inequality in state schools and I haven't heard any politicians trying to address that.

If 22 state schools had closed their doors in the space of 3 months there would be a public outcry, but because they are independent schools it's 'tough shit"!

@twistyizzyAh well. I don’t think the reason for imposing VAT is to prevent access to privilege (does anyone think that? It’s a pretty inefficient way of doing it) and I do think there is inequality in the state system. So you’re talking to the wrong person.

And I don’t think “tough shit” about schools closing. I just think the picture is more complicated than simply “these schools closed because of the levying of VAT.