Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

Well, I'm sure there will be Reasons why independent boarding is a grotesque display of posh privilege that should be stamped upon, whilst state boarding is nothing-to-see-here.

Yep cognitive dissonance at best. You only have to click on the links to the 2 examples of state boarding schools I posted to see that there is zero difference between them + independent schools.
It is this that highlights the pure discriminatory purpose of this policy. There is zero logical, coherent argument anyone can give for exemption state boarding schools.

@LeakyRadI’d be happy to engage with you about this topic. But I am a little tired of the snark. Could you not do that please? Then we can talk.

Really? Because I remember you posting a really quite nasty + snarky post a while back that really affected the way I viewed you. I commented on the fact and you acknowledged it had maybe been in poor taste.

Of course, the biggest "privilege" is state education. All those wealthy parents getting their children educated for free is a massive privilege. They get a subsidy of 100% because the tax payer foots all of the bill.

@twistyizzyNo difference at all. Except that the state boarding schools charge about (I think) around £10000 pa for boarding. Private school charge on average more than that a term.

Incidentally, I am opposed to any sort of selection, covert or overt, for state funded education. I assume that’s what’s going on at the state boarding schools, but I don’t know enough about them to be sure.

It's OK @twistyizzy , I understand that snark is an irregular verb a bit like boarding fees are an irregular noun.

No the ones I linked to charge per term exactly the same as our independent day school. There is zero moral argument for exempting state boarding schools, parents are still paying for access to 'privilege'.
Have you clicked on the 2 links I posted?

I’ve just compared fees between DS2’s school’s boarding element and the nearest state boarding school to here. Before VAT was added, our school’s boarding element was cheaper than the state school’s provision. Has Labour actually justified why it’s reasonable to tax private schools’ boarding elements whilst leaving the state provision VAT free?

Incidentally the state boarding school’s fees are currently just over £19,000 pa.

@twistyizzyI’m sorry about that. I don’t remember it I’m afraid-I must have lost my temper. I’m glad I apologised. I do try very hard not to be rude.

I went to a state boarding school, one of my siblings was a boarder at a top public school.

Frankly there was no real difference - slightly more impressive sports facilities and more Oxbridge candidates. Both schools were highly selective - the state boarding school had a much higher ask for boarding places than day places though.

The majority of my fellow boarders were military kids with parents stationed overseas, the rest were in my position - lived very rurally with parents with jobs with very long hours that made it hard for them to facilitate extra curricular and no access to wrap around care.

@OhCrumbsWhereNowHow did the state boarding school select? Apart from the obvious covert being-able-to-pay-the-boarding-costs?

Do most private boarding schools charge £10000 per term for the boarding element? £30000 pa?

It had a slightly odd set up back when I was there as it was a 13-18 school rather than 11-18.

Children at local state schools sat the 11+ and those that passed went into a grammar stream at the local comprehensive which then transferred over to this school at Y9.

Boarders and children at preps who lived in the local area sat Common Entrance at the end of Y8.

Boys needed to get 55% average to get a boarding place and girls needed 70% average. You had to board if you lived outside a very strict catchment area.

The fees when I was there were less than 3k a year for boarding, and the education part was free. I know it was one where the military would cover everything - boarding fee plus extras plus uniform as it was a bargain compared with boarding fees at independents.

From what I can see now, they have expanded to Y7 entry and use the 11+. Boarders have to have an additional interview to check suitability for boarding (sensible).

@user149799568 No they don’t. My point is that state boarding schools still provide free education like any other state school. The fees are boarding only. Whether or not VAT should be levied on those costs or not levied on the boarding element of private school fees is something I don’t know enough about to comment on. Come back to me later!

£5,450 - state boarding (Y9 entrants)
£6,544 - state boarding (6th form entrants)
£6,714 - Rugby
£5,940 - King's Canterbury (Y9-Y11)
£5328 - King's Canterbury (6th form)
£5,700 - Cheltenham Ladies College (Y7 entry)
£6,100 - Cheltenham Ladies College (Y12 entry)

These are termly boarding fees. Seems like in general if you go for 5 years you pay less a term than if they only get you for 2 years.

The private school figures include the 20% VAT - so they're actually rather better value than what my alma mater is now demanding. Slightly shocked at that given the food is a damn sight better at some of the private ones!

Is the state boarding element itself delegated to a private company? Remember @twistyizzy you can make a Freedom of Information Request if you need to on any and all state boarding schools.
It was always unfair that they end up exempting state boarding but not the boarding element of independent education. It is a weak spot for Labour and further evidence for the court case potentially.
Let’s say if private boarding schools were now arguably incentivised to let local fosters parents take in the kids instead of the school to avoid the VAT cost. Not in the best interests of children, massive safeguarding issue and what some may have to do because of this Labour Government.

No. They wrap up any cost of providing the education into the "boarding" element. How else do they maintain those elaborate grounds + facilities?
There is no way it costs 6K per term to cover boarding costs. Boarding in indy schools isn't twice the cost of day provision!

In my experience, no it isn't contracted out. The school ran like a boarding school that had day students rather than a day school where some kids also slept there.

My housemaster was also the German teacher. His wife was full-time house-mistress. House tutors were all members of the teaching staff.

Meals were all in the central dining hall - nothing like a bracing mile walk to breakfast in mid-winter 😂

Weekend activities were all run by teachers - and open to day students as well as boarders, but boarders got priority on trips (ice-skating, theme parks, waterparks etc). It was a lot of fun to be honest.

We had private school terms - so Saturday school, long holidays and exeat weekends - rather than state school terms.

Exactly. I am genuinely amazed that the poster can’t see anything wrong with what they wrote. And then to launch ranting and insulting posts at posters who don’t think violent analogies are okay. Wow.

@twistyizzyi understand that the state boarding schools tend to have significant endowments. And the boarding costs are significantly less than 6k a term. And as a state school governor of many years standing, i would like to see their accounts! But as I said, I’m still finding out.

No, the ones I posted have termly fees of 6K.
Also see these as further examples:
https://www.rgshw.com/

https://www.doyrms.com/

There is zero argument to say these are any different from independent schools. In fact they more represent the major public schools rather than the local indy schools.

Our nearest state boarding school’s fees are the same as @OhCrumbsWhereNow has posted above - £5,450 per term for Y9-11 and £6,544 for sixth form - which makes me think it is likely the same school. The fees seem to be in line with other state boarding costs.

Cranbrook is already having a hard time having to take extra into Year 9 day students following the school adjudicator and they got an RI in boarding in May 2024 when I have heard from people that they are very happy with the school.

The problem is that if you give this current Government half a chance, they are going to destroy anything left over that is good in the whole education sector. They will drive even more teachers out etc cause even more EBSA - they just seem entirely clueless.

£3,969 - The Wellington Academy
£4,050 - Thomas Adams School
£4,100 - Beechen Cliff School
£4,100 - Burford School
£4,135 - Dallam School
£4,440 - Old Swinford Hospital
£4,460 - Brymore Academy
£4,668 - Liverpool College
£4,833 - Richard Huish College
£4,838 - Reading School
£4,982 - Keswick School
£5,000 - Wymondham College
£5,087 - Ripon Grammar School
£5,094 - Haberdashers' Adams
£5,100 - Sexeys
£5,115 - Lancaster Royal Grammar School
£5,450 - Cranbrook School
£5,580 - The Royal School Wolverhampton
£5,625 - St George's School
£5,719 - Hockerill Anglo-European College
£5,790 - Holyport College
£5,799 - Steyning Grammar School
£6,315 - Peter Symonds College (catchment secondary for the kids in the Falkland Islands)
£6,500 - Royal Alexandra and Albert School
£7,110 - Duke of York's Royal Military School
£7,865 - Gordon's

So cheapest is The Wellington Academy at just under £4k a term, and most expensive is Gordon's at almost £8k a term. A lot have higher fees for 6th form and I didn't look at if some include some extras etc.