Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

undermining private ed will negatively affect both a and b.

Agree

@FixItFi yep, it's so shite how we do bad policy just to get at a group. No one else does this for good reason.

Of course it has to be funded but I think decent pay should be pretty high on a priorities list or the public will suffer a lot in the long run. As PP said, they will leave the profession or probably more likely the country f they are not paid for their level of education and training.

Fine, but that has nothing to do with vat on private school fees.

Also not sure why you are putting restoration in ''. For doctors, the pay increase over this year and next will take them to about 97 percent of their 2009 real-terms pay. So it is not quite full restoration.

Well it came up because Twisty was saying this

Labour are cutting funding to the tune of 1.4 billion in order to fund public sector payrises! How does that help schools?

Believe it or not @cantkeepawayforever, teacher's and Drs have children in independent schools and nothing has ever made us more likely to leave the U.K. than the spiteful rhetoric and policies aimed at our children. Nothing has even come close in fact.

hopefully I am wrong, but I don’t think pay rises are going to make one jot of difference in our ability to attract or retain teachers, especially if further budget cuts make the job even more difficult. All of the teachers I know complain about pay but are leaving because of behaviour, lack of send support, ridiculous expectations, etc. ironically for this discussion a number of them took pay cuts to work at private schools where the job is easier and they are better supported.

And I largely agree with twisty that it is incredibly disingenuous to blame the ‘need’ for vat on education on a fiscal black hole that is at least partly their own creation due to committing to but not funding private sector pay rises.

Presumably you are not a young doctor on £15 per hour. That's quite a big motivator to leave the country too.

also nothing to do with vat on education

Don’t you get it @Labraradabrador?

If only those selfish posho kids stopped going to their posho private schools…or if their posho parents coughed up some more taxes… or something… then all the ills of the world would be fixed!

But here we are, heading for hell in our proverbial handcart WHICH THE POSHO KIDS AND THEIR SELFISH POSHO PARENTS ARE GLEEFULLY PUSHING!!

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/dfe-wont-fully-fund-unexpected-post-16-pupils/

“Luke Sibieta, of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, said the effect of the change was likely to be “relatively small in practice”.
But it was “certainly noteworthy” if “lots of colleges and sixth forms are seeing high levels of exceptional in-year growth in student number”.

Funny that, same person who wrote a report stating VAT on private school fees won’t have a big impact due to inelastic demand…

So kids moving from private sector to state Sixth Form plus all those who without VAT would have gone private for Sixth Form - if they end up in Sixth Form at higher rates then predicted, this Government is not even going to fully fund them! It is shocking, even for us state parents and completely unacceptable all round.

Amazing how so many other countries do what they can to incentivise parents to take their children off the states books and fund it all themselves.

Meanwhile Labour can't find the money to pay for current state students and want to add a whole heap more... just when peak birth years are going through secondary.

Envy before sense.

As I have said before, Labour’s error was to promise not to raise personal taxation, while realising full well that the state of public services would require significant investment to put right.

Difficult in the face of similar promises by the Tories, who also knew the state of public services but probably had no intention of investing in them.

It’s unclear to what extent the general public could have handled a perhaps more straightforward and open discussion that said ‘if you want x, you are going to have to pay y’. It certainly wasn’t a discussion that was attempted during electioneering.

Tbh, the discussion for me us about ‘how do we create, and fund, the good universal state education system available for (even if not taken up by) everyone in society, from the most to the least deprived and including all children with SEN, that as a country we aspire to and our children deserve’. If VAT is not an option, how DO we fund it?

By the way, a ‘good universal state education system available for (even if not taken up by) everyone in society, from the most to the least deprived and including all children with SEN’ isn’t me being vitriolic about private schools, or envious, or racing to the bottom.

It seems to me that it, like adequate healthcare for the ill, decent welfare support for the poor, and respectful care for the elderly, is an obvious mark of a civilised society.

Have any of the court cases happened yet, does anyone know?

I don’t think anyone would dispute that in principle. I think the sticking points will primarily be around funding, followed by clarity around what ‘good’ means in practice.

i’m all for excellent state education, I just don’t think a punitive tax on private school attendees is a realistic (or fair) path to achieving that.

I think early April is the main date? No idea what that means in terms of rulings.

And once again, in this case the poster specifically mentioned doctors and teachers so it is relevant. Are you the thread prefect?

Indeed.

To repeat the rallying cry on so many of these threads, “It’s a very popular policy!”

But why? It isn’t going to improve state education.

It is not going to improve state education, just put more pressure on it. Private school parents are not immune from economic factors. If the economy is not strong, plenty will also be losing their jobs - this has already happened to some friends of mine with DC in private education. They are just waiting for the next transition point and the grandparents are helping in the mean time. If the economy is performing poorly and with the double whammy of VAT on top of that, plenty of people will have no choice but to leave the private education sector and take up places in the state sector.

The biggest lie of all is stating that private schools should have cut cost and “absorb” VAT. The issue being that for VAT introduced half way through a school year - budgets were already set, the schools have contractual obligations and they have to be run solvently. Rachel Reeves insisting this is introduced half way through the school year is, as I stated, completely shambolic and unforgivable. Had they exempted some exam years and made the SEND exemptions wider etc this VAT may have been acceptable. It is probably why people are feeling ambushed. They were not given a choice, they were trapped and are angry and I doubt they will accept the outcome of this. So Labour chose to fight and ambush etc - that is why it is all so unpleasant. It did not need to be implemented in this harsh way. I think it has lost them thousands and thousands of voters for good.

Happy to volunteer if I get a badge?

other posters comments in relation to subject at hand - yours are not, and the one line what about-ism posts are quite tiresome.

edited to add, feel free to start your own post about public sector pay and I will join you there- there is quite a bit in the press this morning about the topic.

So, this policy will simultaneously:

Have a minuscule insignificant effect on movement out of the private sector, thereby resulting in £££ PS VAT moolah for school building repairs, thousands of teachers, millions of breakfasts, any other general national expenses, and widespread national joy.
Force an influx of spoilt offspring of elitist poshos into the real world, thereby resulting in improvements in the state schools due to said pushy poshos yet without these extra children costing anything to the taxpayer. And as the ultimate goal, the collapse of the elitist unfair private sector, thereby resulting in no £££ PS VAT moolah, but to widespread national joy.

?

I suppose the ISC would be able to do their analysis of the amount going to the gov as VAT? Would need all the individual schools to supply info though.