How smart do you need to be to pass 11+

[Mumofgirls12341]

My 9 year old is in year 5 and preparing for 11+ and I was just wondering how smart does a child actually need to be in order to secure a place? We’re aiming at London super selectives Latymer, HBS and Woodford County Girls School.

DD has always been exceeding/greater depth since reception but I wouldn’t say she is exceptionally bright - does she have a decent shot? I have heard of people saying it’s almost impossible to get into these schools so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Maybe not only aim for super selective schools?

Our children are smart and passed 11+ for local grammar school but I suppose London can be tougher than Devon.

I don't know your area but where I taught in Bucks it was maybe the top 3 out of a class of 30 who were likely to get in. If she's consistently been on the top table throughout school, and she hasn't needed intensive out of school coaching to stay there, then she probably has a good chance.

The grammar school I went to, there were 6,000 applications for 60 places each year, so that was the top 1%.

But that was with a specific entrance exam rather than a general 11+.

This year there will be the extra numbers coming in from private schools as well, some of whom will have had prep school class sizes since they were 4.

I think it's going to get quite competitive. But still worth trying for.

There are approx 10 applicants per place for Latymer and Woodford. Don’t know about HBS but would imagine it’s more competitive.
I don’t think you can possibly be in catchment for all 3 though?

Why don’t you ask DCs teacher for advice? They will know if it’s worth a try. Our Primary School approached me about both our DC.

You need to be smart. A GCSE foundation maths paper is easier than some maths qs. See if she can do the first half of a paper and you’ll know!

For those schools, you would have to start weekly tutoring now and she would need to be doing a couple of hours of work a day through all the school holidays between now and the exam, especially the summer holidays. Brutal I know, but "bright" isn't enough given how tough the competition is in London. And it will be worse now that VAT increase means some people who would have gone private won't be able to anymore.

Depends on the area, I'm afraid. Can't answer your question as it stands.

@Mumofgirls12341 sorry- ignore me. I only read half your opening post.🤭

DS is in a super selective
I don’t think I realised how clever he was because I had no expectation of him getting in. He was exceeding/GD for everything all through school and I would have said probably top 2 in his class but I didn’t know if that was enough for the school.
He did get in though and won an academic prize last year
Out of 45 boys in his year, two got in - not all sat of course

So I would say need to be top 1-2 in the class to have a chance. The other boy who was top in everything didn’t pass first round but obviously had a complete mare in the exam.

My DD has been top or near the top of her class since reception, reading age of 13 in year 3, that sort of thing. I wouldn't say she's a genius or anything that cringey, just bright and interested in learning for the sake of it. She reads non fiction books for fun etc.

We recently moved to a new county and put her in for the selective girl's grammar, she only had the summer to prepare. We took a very light touch approach because i dont agree with hothousing. She passed, but we won't know if she got a place until March.

I wouldn't have put her through it if I didn't think she had a reasonable chance.

Agree with this. You are looking at some of the most competitive schools in the country. The children who get in without tutoring and just a little prep at home because they are naturally very bright are few and far between. The overwhelming majority are extremely bright AND been tutored plus worked a couple of hours per day since they were in Y4/5.

If you know a good tutor, ask them to assess your child to give you a good idea of their ability relative to others

Depends completely on where you live and which schools.

It isn't a flat England-wide pass mark.

Where I grew up, Kent, 8 in each class of 30 got in so no tutoring necessary. Where I live now, secret, it's only 1 in 30.

Definitely need to be ‘top table’.

For Latymer, a good benchmark is that by the time of the test, they should be about a year ahead in maths - so they should know the year 7 material, more or less.

From what I can see, the successful candidates are the type of kids who are naturally curious and like solving puzzles. It's a mindset rather than an IQ thing. Ask yourself whether your DD is actually enjoying the practice tests. If she is, she's probably on the right track.

My DS goes to a super selective - one of the highest performing in the country. His CAT scores through primary always put him in the top 1 or 2% nationally. I would say that you have to be top of the top sets to have a chance of securing a place. Also, with super selectives it’s not actually about passing. Technically there is a pass mark for my DC’s school BUT to have any chance of a place you need to be at least 42-45 marks over that pass mark.

They are superselectives so being on top table is not enough. If she is in top 10% of year then she has a chance. I would say it's top 1-2% who get in but a lot depends how she does in the exam on the day. Speed is a big factor. I have 1 DC at one of the named schools and another DC who isn't. Both kids are smart, were top table, working at GD. The biggest difference between them is that DC1 is fast.

You need to be clever, focussed, fast and accurate. And it is a lottery on the day.

You should have some comprehensive backup options too. There are quite a few excellent London schools for girls that do aptitude places. Often very bright girls also have art/music/language aptitude and a shot at those. A clever child will do well at any of these schools as well.

A lot of the kids that pass the 11plus, have been trained, to within an inch of their lives, some over many years, for that one test, on that one day. That is why, originally, it was advised that children should never be tutored for the 11plus, because it should be taken on natural ability, and not because they have been trained and tutored day in day out, for years. So I guess the question should be, very broadly speaking, not how smart they should be but how time and money would be prepared to spend to ensure your child passes the 11plus? Of course, lots of children have never been tutored, and truly get in on their own merit and ability.

It all depends on the school you're applying for.

Henrietta Barnet requires an incredibly high standard while some of the others in the North aren't anything like as close.

Something interesting is if you look at the 11+ area on SATs-Papers.co.uk then they show the individual grades for GCSE and A-Level subjects at each grammar school. If you look at some schools you'll notice that while a lot of kids score strong grades, plenty score pretty disappointing ones too.

Maybe this could be an informed starting point?

I think much depends on luck to be honest. My DD got through the first round for a super selective but didn't make the final cut. Still ended up with 10 GSCEs grade 8/9 and three A* a levels.

Agree with several pps that for super selectives top table isn't enough - it's more like top 1-2%, if that.

DP and I both went to Latymer back in the day, but things have gone utterly bonkers since then and we're under no illusions that DD, while similarly academic, would get in with a bit of light tutoring like we did. There was a FOI request a year or so ago about numbers sitting the test for Latymer, and the response was 2540 kids for 180 places. HB is likely to be longer odds than that, and I imagine VAT on private schools will have an impact too. I work in primary schools and the laser focus on the grammars of some families there, often from Year 2/3, is incredible.

We don't want to put DD through it all, and we don't like our local comprehensive options, so we're hoping to move into catchment for one of the nice girls' schools with aptitude places that @Araminta1003 (out of London in our case, but similar idea). I loved my time at Latymer - it's a fabulous school- but for DD I don't want her fate to come down to 'luck on the day' when we have no local back-up option that we're happy with.

DC1 went to Latymer and we really liked the school. Got in with zero prep but DC is HFA so probably an outlier.

HBS gets 30 applications per place. We know of children who were consistently at the very top of a tutoring class but didn't make the cut.

Just to add: I'm sure some (a few?) children do get in without all the tutoring, but I know several children who have recently got into the local super-selectives, and this is what their families did beforehand:

• Tutoring and several hours of top-up work weekly from about Year 4 (waiting list for 11+ tutor from Year 3)
• From Year 5, practice tests under exam conditions in various locations at weekends
• No holidays for a year or so beforehand - spent the school breaks tutoring/studying
• One mother took a six month sabbatical from work to help tutor her child herself

I mean, I'm not sure how necessary all of this was, but it paid off in these children's cases and I'm not aware of anyone recently who has got in without extensive tutoring - as others have said, it's often more about the tutoring, speed and exam technique than it is about 'natural smarts'.

Just to add that - partly as a result of all this, I'm sure - Latymer has changed somewhat as a school since my time there. For example, it has lost some of its previous focus on music/the Arts and is now very heavily STEM focused.

@Ubertomusic Ha ha, it seems I've found one of the few who did get in without all the tutoring! Clearly it does happen, but I don't think it's anything close to the norm. Glad your DS enjoyed Latymer - we visited recently and it still seems like a lovely school.