How smart do you need to be to pass 11+

[Mumofgirls12341]

My 9 year old is in year 5 and preparing for 11+ and I was just wondering how smart does a child actually need to be in order to secure a place? We’re aiming at London super selectives Latymer, HBS and Woodford County Girls School.

DD has always been exceeding/greater depth since reception but I wouldn’t say she is exceptionally bright - does she have a decent shot? I have heard of people saying it’s almost impossible to get into these schools so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Kids often show musical and sports talents at a very young age because skills like rhythm and coordination develop early. On the other hand, academic skills like critical thinking, math, science, and language usually become noticeable as they get older and start secondary school and beyond.

In contrast to music school, football camps, or gymnastics centres, grammar schools teach the same curriculum as other state schools.

Despite this, some parents like @Araminta1003 still push their children academically from a young age to justify their approach.

You are incorrect @yousf - I never “pushed” my DC academically. If anything they pushed me and so did their primary school. Because any teacher can spot an academically gifted child.
Why you find this so offensive whereas a musical talent is acceptable, I do not know.
Is it because in a capitalist society often bright kids end up being successful financially later on? Can you not stomach that? Whereas those good at music or sports - the chances of them gaining financially from it long term are minute. So you would rather believe your lie that all kids are equal cognitively. It is just not norm out by the facts. Most kids in the top 2% cognitively, it is going to be very obvious from an early age. Not for all, but for most.

@Araminta1003 You couldn't be more absurd if you tried, equating the top 2% of cognitive ability with students in grammar schools, which are initially selected by parents. Most students in grammar schools are far from being in the top 2% cognitively. There might be some in that spectrum, but also far more kids of the same spectrum in non-grammar schools and thriving.

Moreover, mainstream education focuses on teaching academic and life skills, not necessarily ensuring that high cognitive ability translates into academic success or future career achievement

@yousf - this thread is about London superselective grammars schools, in case you had not noticed. And they are full of children with top cognitive ability, hence the top results at both GCSE and A levels. It is right there in front of you, if you remove the blinders. Plain to see. These grammars represent a very small proportion of all children in the UK so of course, there are many other clever kids in other schools throughout the country. However, in these particular schools, there is a high concentration of them, whether you like it or not!

In 2024, 96% of all GCSEs at Henrietta Barnet were 7-9 and 81% of all A level were A star or A. It is just not possible to get those results without a very clever cohort. And many of those girls are not just academic, they also have other significant talents. Some people are just gifted, so what?

It's even more absurd to equate GCSE results with the top 2% cognitively, as they are completely different things. This also highlights that the high exam results achieved by the school are largely due to its highly selective admissions process, raising questions about the actual value it adds.

In England, 23% students get GCSE grade 7 or above in 2024. One can randomly pick some upper performer in state comprehensive school to create such cohort for showing statistic, so what?

@yousf - one of my DC did a baseline Reception test years ago and the Reception teacher specifically told me that DC was way off the charts and on track to get all 9s at GCSEs. In those exact words. This was a teacher who had been teaching for many years and was very experienced and close to retirement, in a state school. Said DC passed easily for grammar with not much input. So what? And the value added is definitely there in that DC loves school. Who gets to ascertain value added? Those in charge arbitrarily for a few years? Those who believe they have studied what “value” is?
You can see our whole society is now rebelling massively against those expert notions of “I know better” coming from the top. It does not work. It is pure ideology.

@Araminta1003 There's absolutely nothing wrong with your child loving their school. I'm sure they would have thrived just as well, if not better, in a non-grammar school.

But the real kicker is how you don't seem to notice how contradictory your statements are. You keep citing impressive achievement statistics from grammar schools while also admitting that these stats are purely due to selective admissions. And let’s not forget your prophetic claim that your DC would predicted all 9s in GCSEs at reception, even before the new grading system was implemented.

@yousf- you are deliberately misquoting me. As I stated very clearly, my DCs Reception teacher told me very clearly in no uncertain terms that DC is academically gifted and that whatever baseline test they were experimenting with at the time further attests very clearly to that as DC was way off the charts on all the markers. And said Reception Teacher also stated very clearly that that means DC would be on track to achieve the very top GCSE results. The reason I mention the anecdote is because I found it quite surprising coming from a state school teacher.
You seem intent on denying children who are highly academic the ability to learn with other children like them. Instead what are they meant to do? Teach other children in class because the Government cannot recruit enough teachers? What exactly do you hope to gain from children who are very academic? Spread the love between lots of schools to inspire others? To recruit more teachers etc? Why are you so offended by the notion of a superselective grammar school? Please explain it.
The kids are happy learning at a fast pace and having friendships with other kids willing to talk about e.g complex history, AI, political issues from an early age etc. - whatever they are interested in. It can be difficult for them in a more normal mainstream setting due to need to learn all the time, it can be draining for the parents too and often until their thirst of learning is satisfied, they can be quite difficult to parent. So bung them altogether quite often they challenge each other and are happier. That is why parents tend to seek these schools out and some even move house for that reason. It is not because they have been tutoring since the kid is 2. They just know what is right for their child. It is often obvious.
Looking at current DCs class this year (Year 6) all those who have passed superselective comfortably (or at least to stage 2, because the schools differ), well it was obvious from Reception/Year 1 latest who is very bright. No surprises whatsoever.

@Araminta1003 Looking at current DCs class this year (Year 6) all those who have passed superselective comfortably (or at least to stage 2, because the schools differ), well it was obvious from Reception/Year 1 latest who is very bright. No surprises whatsoever.

This is hilarious. You should consider a career in fortune telling. It’s not the kids who are obviously bright from reception, it’s the parents like you who pushy that anyone can predict future path of your kids based on such early impression.

No @yousf - you are wrong. The state school my DC attended do put them into sets with more challenging work from an early age, regardless of parents/background. In fact, I would say they do intervention for FSM if they spot early ability and encourage them to exceed.

In fact, I have just checked and it looks like the baseline reception assessment is a real thing now. The one my DC did years ago was some sort of an initial pilot that they were testing. Looks like it is now an official statutory measure. Does it offend you @yousf - do you think the parents should sit one too?!

You've really offended the baseline assessment, which is actually meant to measure the progress of primary school teaching. Instead, you treat it as if it labels kids as 'Grammar material' from Reception. What an insult to primary school education. Honestly, only parent like you think that way.

Again, I never labelled my own DC, it was a Reception teacher close to retirement who told me DC is academically gifted and way off the charts. It is you who said it is all about me and not about teaching in primary schools. And then you also said that results in grammar schools is all about the selective intake.
In fact, if we look at your statements, we may as well do away with schools full stop. Because it is the parents that matter and the kids on selection.

So what is it going to be? Make up your mind?!

Definitely not the grammar schools. You're the one who couldn't make up your thoughts properly and keep contradicting yourself.

“My 9 year old is in year 5 and preparing for 11+ and I was just wondering how smart does a child actually need to be in order to secure a place? We’re aiming at London super selectives Latymer, HBS and Woodford County Girls School.
DD has always been exceeding/greater depth since reception but I wouldn’t say she is exceptionally bright - does she have a decent shot? I have heard of people saying it’s almost impossible to get into these schools so any advice would be greatly appreciated.”

Let’s get back to the OP.

In conclusion, the OP’s DC has been exceeding from Reception and, as the OP has come on MN and is doing some 11 plus prep, clearly they are an engaged & supportive parent. Combo very bright child, engaged parent = likely to yield results.

Outcome: DC has a very good chance to succeed in the 11 plus. However, some luck on the day is involved and OP needs to have their own boundaries as to how much prep is reasonable for their child and family. Most important thing is that the DC gains from the actual process, not just the end game (as discussed, it can go wrong on the day and should not be made into a huge deal if it does, this is why it is better to sit several).

Looking at current DCs class this year (Year 6) all those who have passed superselective comfortably (or at least to stage 2, because the schools differ), well it was obvious from Reception/Year 1 latest who is very bright. No surprises whatsoever.

I find this interesting as my DS is in year 2 and I have genuinely no idea who the bright ones are in the class. How do you know? Did you ask the parents?

I think DS is bright (obviously all parents think this about their child 🤣) - he spoke very early, learned to read early, and seems to be a gifted musician (grade 2 violin after 6 months). DH and I met at Oxbridge and support his education, so he’s got every advantage on that front. But he’s also a 6 year old summer born boy and isn’t that interested in formal learning (yet?), much prefers running around and climbing stuff to reading, and doesn’t care about eg doing well in his spelling tests!

We have to move house in 2 years, when he’s in year 4, and schools will play a big part in where we go. Will it be clearer by then whether he is grammar school material? I’d say he has potential but right now not the right temperament or attitude and I’d never try to make him eg have tutoring if he wasn’t into it (which he would not be right now!). I can’t tell though if this is just maturity or personality, or maybe both.

Sorry to detail the thread op - I’ve found it very interesting and enlightening!

@Grinchinlaws - I always volunteered to read and trips and cooking etc etc so it’s obvious to me (although I would never discuss it with other parents). In addition, our school does groups and harder work for those exceeding and my DC always knew who got harder work. Moreover, my youngest at least, always was close to the brightest kids on the playground as well, including the opposite sex and from older year groups.

From what you describe your DS has innate natural ability and just keep encouraging and reading loads to him. He will mature. What you need to make sure is the vocabulary & comprehension building if he doesn’t sit down enough to read himself in due course - audio books and reading to him and asking inference type questions regularly. Music is brilliant for the mind too, including maths and language development, according to some research, at least.
The issue we seem to have as a society now is that screens take over far too early so those who may have become avid readers later on as teens, are increasingly less likely to do so now. However, literacy is really fundamental and that is why we keep being told to read read as much as possible with our children.

If you need to move anyway there probably is not much difference in choosing a great comprehensive with good setting. That is exactly why a lot of people do move for secondary. We didn’t want to move as we love our house so grammars were a good option for us. Besides, I didn’t want to have to pay a huge amount of stamp duty either.

I do think we need to be guided by the children. My youngest just wanted to read and do music for years rather than sports. However, he is now becoming more sporty which is great. He never was a run around boy when little. The social and emotional development of children is just as important as their cognitive development so we have to support what they choose. What they innately like doing helps them build a rapport with other children choosing similar and that helps their emotional & social development.

Regarding tutoring, although I never did it myself, my friends who have chosen great tutors with actual primary school experience have reported that their children enjoyed the actual journey and got a lot out of it, regardless of 11 plus or not. We have to remember that in a class of 30 plus they don’t get much individual attention. I have always paid for 1:1 music lessons and I am not sure it is that different conceptually.

Thanks @Araminta1003 that’s helpful.

I genuinely have no clue about where DS is relative to others. He got “exceeding expectations” last year but I wouldn’t be surprised if he was one of many, especially as he’s one of the younger ones in the year. His school is an outstanding state primary in a very middle class area where there are no private preps nearby, so many of his peers would likely otherwise be in private school and have committed and engaged parents.

There are also no true comprehensives at secondary here - broadly speaking the wealthy pupils go to private school (we can’t afford this), the non-wealthy but bright go to the single sex grammars (which are 95%+ Asian- we are not Asian) and the rest go to the comp which is run with military discipline and no extra-curriculars. None of these seem right for DS so we will need to find somewhere else for him.

I agree with you about being guided by him though. At his age I spent all my time reading and writing my own stories and poems, which couldn’t be further from DS🤣

Hi,
Which schools did you decide to go for for your daughter? My DD is the same so not sure if Latymer would be a good option for her....this is if he gets a place. Our other options are St Annes and Wren.

Tutors and two hours extra work a day -This all makes it seem as though primary schools are teaching bright children far, far too little for the standard they are capable of. It is worrying.

This all makes it seem as though primary schools are teaching bright children far, far too little for the standard they are capable of. It is worrying.

I don’t think it’s that. It’s the fact that a pass is not enough, a good score is not enough, a dc needs to get a very high score & do the test fast.

Hi! Selective schools vary enormously in the range of ability they cater to. Here is just one family's particular experience.

My daughter was at a school for 7 years, a school which is well known and which has some 3,000 girls applying for 100 places. Around 600 are very strong candidates and, of these, around 300 are exceptional, with nothing to choose between them. The 100 which end up at the school tend to be self-driven and they have a very strong work ethic, a significant ability to learn, a wide range of academic and other interests. All have worked very hard for many years to get there, all with external tutors or with home tuition or both. Those from private prep schools were advantaged but also worked hard; those from state primary schools worked very hard outside of school to prepare for 11 Plus entrance exams.

Also, they are likely to be 'normal' modern girls for the 2020s, impossible to separate from their smartphones and from social media and normal girl stuff. There is no one 'type': some are mathematical geniuses, some can do sums only after a lot of practice; some love Classics , some love Physics; some play double bassoon, some play truant; some play county cricket, some play playground politics; some are loud, some are quiet; many are nice, some are not.

What are my daughter's contemporaries up to now? They are still young and starting out as mainly dentists, doctors, technologists and bankers or in marketing/PR; a few are academics, actors and teachers; one Cambridge graduate is a primary school teacher; some of the medics and technologists are part time professional musicians or artists.

But the high score is not random but to meet the standard of the new
school, and that will include fast thinking etc. All the pupils who meet that standard and get to that school will then be working at that standard from then on.

So what does that tell us about schools where the standard was so far below this that even their brightest pupils needed tuition?

Its bit of both IMO. When parents know others are tutoring, they jump on the bandwagon which leads to ever increasing competition. Posts from parents like @Dido2010 with children who have gone there show this.

Many primaries also do fail to stretch the brightest and leave them to coast because they know they will achieve what they need to without input. Others are brilliant and make the effort but should note the 11+ curriculum tests on what children should know at the end of Y6, yet exams are taken before Y6 has begun. So if you are in the state sector, you need to work at home or have a tutor simply to cover the syllabus for the exam. Exam practice is on top