How smart do you need to be to pass 11+

[Mumofgirls12341]

My 9 year old is in year 5 and preparing for 11+ and I was just wondering how smart does a child actually need to be in order to secure a place? We’re aiming at London super selectives Latymer, HBS and Woodford County Girls School.

DD has always been exceeding/greater depth since reception but I wouldn’t say she is exceptionally bright - does she have a decent shot? I have heard of people saying it’s almost impossible to get into these schools so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

DC took JMC since year 2 and had qualified for both Junior and Cayley Olympiad a number of times now. They have won some Distinction awards and medals in the lower age groups so school allowed them to move ahead. DC started taking SMC since year 6 and will be looking to qualify for BMO1 next year or the year after.

Boundaries are the same for students of all ages. The only exception is a lower boundaries in BMO1 to get to BMO2. There is an upper limit for all challenges but no lower age limit.

IMC is for students up to year 11, no lower limit.

For the rest of your comment, I have no need to argue against. I am too familiar with the London tutoring scene and the kind of bullsht that tutors make up.

Having just gone through this with my own child...

Honestly a lot is down to luck with the questions. My own child had gone over every type of question and understood how to answer them. The only one which is unpredictable is English as impossible to learn the meanings of every word in the dictionary. So what did they get in the exam this year but Shakespeare's Twelfth Night! And ended up not "passing" by a whisker.

It's a very difficult exam in difficult circumstances which does not accurately select the best students for grammar.

I have learnt since that grammar school and comprehensive schools teach the same curriculum so he could leave school with the same qualifications anyway!

I’m wondering if I know the pp on the thread whose dd got into round 2 hbs this year? My dd did too and also got a top 700 Latymer rank. It’s going to be a long wait til March isn’t it @HSkomi ?! (or are you in catchment?)

It’s very hard to know which preparations were the most helpful and I do think it’s unfairly weighted towards those with education/money - especially as new types of vr and nvr questions are coming out and if you only have access to books then you wouldn’t have seen them! Yes, technically you ‘could’ work them out - if you had enough time, but they aren’t always intuitive.

Dd has always been an avid reader - some ‘challenging’ books, but mostly widely and for pleasure and we’ve always read together, so she can ask me if she doesn’t understand something. She’s a relatively able all rounder and her last mean CAT score (they do them at school) was 135.

We did some of the 10 min cgp books off and on since y4, but probably started tutoring quite late - Easter of y5, but then did some intensive weeks with an amazing English/prep tutor to get up to speed, which helped a lot. The tutor had them eg doing 100 vr questions in 30 minutes, then when they were getting 95%+ reduced the time and then reduced it again. That’s the kind of speed which you need for the super selective exams and I found it hard to push her to those lengths myself - as she’ll argue with me, but not with the tutor! 🤣 The aim is that the exams should be easier than the practise you’ve been doing, so that even when they’re nervous they’ll still do well.

There are lots of free resources online - we used some mcq comprehensions from the ‘exam coach’ which were Shakespeare based (after QE boys used some in their exams), but actually most of the texts in the actual exams were more normal books. It’s good to be familiar with a range of texts though, so if poems/Shakespeare etc comes up then the dc know how to approach it.

This is the point many private school parents have been making for the past year. Some state school parents are happy about the VAT not realising that actually the chance for their kids to get into Grammar will be more difficult that it otherwise would have been.
it is likely that moving forward a lot of private school kids will be taking a larger percentage than normal of Grammar school places

it is likely that moving forward a lot of private school kids will be taking a larger percentage than normal of Grammar school places

I don’t agree with that & if so it will be a tiny percentage. Competition for London grammars is fierce with only the absolute brightest who do well on the day getting in. Plenty of private school dc don’t fit that criteria.

Just visit the schools at chucking out time . You will be gridlocked by cars costing in excess of £25k

You will see plenty of 25k cars at bog standard comps too…

You need to be clever, focussed, fast and accurate. And it is a lottery on the day.

You should have some comprehensive backup options too and It all depends on the school you're applying for.

It might be a larger percentage than you think. Take Henrietta Barnett School as an example. Every parent who is seriously interested in the school is willing to make tradeoffs for their DDs' educations. For some people, money is relatively cheap and their DDs' time is dear, so they'd rather target "top" independent schools than put their DDs through the exam prep. For others, money is more limited to so they'd rather spend their DDs' time on exam prep and/or rent within the 3 mile catchment. The imposition of VAT will push some families from the first category to the second. I wouldn't underestimate what these families can do if they decide to change their targets.

HBS has a PAN of 104. In 2021, the last waiting list place offered was 57, in 2022, it was 55 and in 2023 it was 46. So, on average, about 50 girls who qualified for places were declining them each year, presumably all in favor of other "top" schools, many of them indies. AFAIK, only 35 girls declined places this year. I know one girl who took up a place at HBS in favor of SPGS and NLCS last spring, and another who declined NLCS and CLSG, when the parents of both had been dead set on independent secondary as recently as a year earlier.

A few years ago, about 15-20 of the 104 girls came from independent primaries. We won't know for a while but I wouldn't be surprised if that number almost doubled this year and stays higher for a while.

This is still based on the assumption that parents who were previously firmly committed to independent schools believe the main value added for secondary school education is a selective intake cohort rather than any other factors. I believe this only represents limited number of private school parents whose children qualify for grammar schools.

The "limited number" of parents who shift their target from independent to grammar, and whose children can qualify for grammar places, may still take up 15-20% of those limited and highly coveted places. It's your call whether you consider this is a "tiny" or "significant" percentage.

Parents decide not to take up places at superselective schools due to a strong preference for independent schools, impractical commutes, satisfactory local options, or simply don't like the vibe. So, perhaps only up to 10% consider switching, which represents a very small percentage.

We don’t know what will happen. Anecdotally, 50 per cent of the local high achieving private school have sat the 11 plus this year. According to my neighbour a lot of them did very well. Whether they will actually move their kids when push comes to shove post March, remains to be seen. Private school fees with VAT have gone up astronomically since Covid. Couple that with higher mortgage, cost of living, uncertain conditions in IT and banking, it all leads me to think there will be a massive move where I live. But we shall see in due course. Nobody is operating in a vacuum. Some parents are simply worried about anti private school agenda from Government and that is enough to make them shift, regardless of finances. It really depends how parents see this.

It's all a matter of perspective. Some people I know would consider a 15-20% reduction in the number of places likely to be available at desired schools to be more than a very small reduction.

The obvious question for your anecdote is: how does the 50 percent compare with previous years?

Really smart/well tutored in the verbal and numerical reasoning way of answering imo. I didn't understand half of the practice paper stuff our local grammar sent (they sent 'helpful' stuff to pupil premium candidates). I am not stupid. I have a distinction pgce, and went to a grammar myself and I found some questions impossible 😂. DD was not in the right mindset for it and frankly I think she would have failed so we withdrew her. Now, aged 14 she's far more intelligent relative to her age than she was at 10/11 I think. She just got an A* for a biology paper that apparently had a level content in it.

In other words, know your child and what will work for them. I comfortably know grammar was the wrong decision for DD at that age.

Well anecdotally the highest achievers used to use top grammars as a back up for the most selective London private schools, but apparently this has now shifted to the best grammars. And the most selective private schools have gone extremely expensive at the same time. So who knows? Maybe those kids will end up staying and negotiating with their existing now relatively cheaper but also selective school? It is very difficult to predict. The game has entirely changed due to the VAT policy. Luckily, we have had a lowering birth rate so hopefully it will all work out for all children one way or another. It also changes from year to year as to which is the most sought after grammar children in particular primary schools are aiming for. Let’s say the superselective with no catchment becomes so overly competitive, then the high achieving state school kids suddenly are happier congregating in the slightly less competitive and more grammar with many kids like them.

Anecdotally, 15% of DCs in our former class at a selective PS qualified for top grammars (think QEB and HBS). I'm absolutely sure even more will get into less selective grammars and part-selective state schools so I expect the number of grammar offer holders to be around 25-30%. That's not a tiny percentage by any measure.

Some will be in a position to choose between top grammars and top PS like Westminster/SPGS but that's a tiny minority. I only know one child who will certainly qualify for these schools and would probably not take up their grammar place in favour of top PS.

Our former PS is all-through and very good so historically it didn't lose so many pupils to grammars. AFAIK only one family has planned to move to grammar since the very beginning. The rest of us have just changed their plans last minute because of VAT.

However, having done the London 11 plus this year I can very confidently report there are extreme amounts of exam tourism going on from all parts of the country and kids from both state and private having a go at lots of different options and parents being willing to move post exams/post March. No surprise really given cost of living, lack of growth, job prospects being lower for some, VAT on school fees. Lots of pushy elbows who cannot do private school fees anymore or simply do not want to, but want a choice in their children’s schooling.

Another obvious question is, not an anecdote, the number of applicants for grammar schools did not increase this year. If the number of applicants from independent schools increased dramatically, does that mean the applicants from the state sector decreased dramatically? The numbers don't seem to add up.

Some parents are simply worried about anti private school agenda from Government and that is enough to make them shift, regardless of finances. It really depends how parents see this.

The parents should also recognize that the government is generally opposed to grammar and selective education. So, what could be the next target for policy change.

@yousf - once you are at grammar school, the Government cannot change your actual school year. At worst, they can make admissions going forward not being selective.

Where do you get your numbers from? The number of applicants to HBS for example did increase this year.

And Sixth Form is always going to be selective by virtue of the nature of A levels. Plus do not underestimate the power that Academies now have. The ship for Central Government to control state education has long since sailed anyway.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/05/grammar-applications-drop-despite-claims-swamped-after-vat-private-school-fees

HBS applicants number, increase by 4%..
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/how_many_applicants_were_recieve#outgoing-1624292