How smart do you need to be to pass 11+

[Mumofgirls12341]

My 9 year old is in year 5 and preparing for 11+ and I was just wondering how smart does a child actually need to be in order to secure a place? We’re aiming at London super selectives Latymer, HBS and Woodford County Girls School.

DD has always been exceeding/greater depth since reception but I wouldn’t say she is exceptionally bright - does she have a decent shot? I have heard of people saying it’s almost impossible to get into these schools so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

The people thanking me clearly think I did!

Your insightful contribution is my dc passed with minimal effort because I didn’t take 6 months off work & forgo all holidays. 👍

I know someone who’s an 11+ tutor for these schools. She said, rule of thumb, the child needs to have the capability to get 100% ie answer all questions right at the age of 8. She will then work at getting them faster so they can get 98-100% in exam conditions as performance slips a bit in the actual exam. If she isn’t able to answer all the questions correctly at 9 then she might struggle. Talk to a local 11+ tutor and find out for certaim.

Why would they need a tutor if they can answer all questions at 8? :)
Our classmates are doing 11+ now - the majority have been tutored for a couple of years, but I don't know anyone who was able to answer 100% of questions two-three years ago. Maybe just one super bright child who got places everywhere, no one else.

Performance does not necessarily slip under stress - DD performs better in exams as athletes are trained to have peak concentration just before the performance. Many people are naturally predisposed to perform better under stress as it's an evolutionary advantage - they're just not taught to use this consciously.

I’ve had plenty of thanks too!

So you conveniently ignored the other two points. 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤣🤣🤣🤣👍👍👍👍👍

At 8 it’s 100% but not in exam conditions. By 9 the last few months of prep are basically just timed tests. The schools mentioned are superselective. It means their admissions criteria can change with the curve and there are lots of migrant kids in London who are used to selective education in their home countries and aim for 100% (but something invariably happens on exam day and they might get a bit lower). You should never assume your child will get in with a score of below 95% in practice tests.

Eg Latymer say you need to get a minimum of 85% in their practice tests to be ‘on track’ (it would probably rank you in the top 900 students). But as far as I understand it that only translates to a space if you apply for one of their 20 fsm places as students in the top 700 are the ones who are considered (by priority of catchment)

At 8 it’s 100% but not in exam conditions. By 9 the last few months of prep are basically just timed tests.

This is simply not true in real life.

As for the "immigrants" - HBS is predominantly South Asian, the "home country" of these girls is England.

How would they be able to get all the answers right at the age of 8 when they’ve never come across some of the concepts before - like algebra in maths. There’s also VR and NVR that state kids school aren’t exposed to.

So you conveniently ignored the other two points

Likewise. Are you going to keep derailing the thread? It’s getting boring now…

I’ve had plenty of thanks too!

Im happy for you but I wasn’t the one asking why you were on the thread 🤔

I think one of the hardest aspects to grasp is the speed.

One mother took a six month sabbatical from work to help tutor her child herself

^

You have to ask if it is actually the right school for the child, given this level of parental implication

@coxesorangepippin I would agree but some parents are way over invested. One of my DCs friends hasn’t been allowed any play/party dates for the last 2 months due to prep. My dc is bright but not super bright and I debated about trying but I think it must be quite hard to go from being one of the top in your primary class to completely average amongst a group of extremely bright dc. I think that would hit his confidence but every dc is different.

Yes, that view is pretty extreme. My DC is at Latymer and he definitely didn't know all that stuff at 8!

@coxesorangepippin I agree too, but the mum in question went there herself, so there was that emotional element to it as well I think. And, other than going private, there aren't many appealing alternatives for genuinely academic DC in the area - which is why we're looking at moving.

My older 3 DC got into London superselectives - we did about 50 hours all in familiarisation mainly over the summer holidays just before the exam and for all of them I paid for one or two mocks. Familiarisation was to go through past papers. They were always greater depth and avid readers and fast at working/grasping concepts. Most of the time spent was on a few novel maths concepts and NVR. None of them had any problems at all with VR or English inference etc.
For DC4, I will be waiting until March to see if they got one of the 2 superselectives or not, but they did make it to second stage for both. In any event, I am past caring and have found 2 comps I really like and know they will do well at regardless. There are people who get overinvested but I find it rather pointless. You have to develop your own boundaries as to what you are willing to put your child through. This is another reason I would never have hired a tutor. I know what I am willing to expose them to in terms of workload.

With a cultural family heritage that demands nothing less than 100% in exams.

There was a FOI request a year or so ago about numbers sitting the test for Latymer, and the response was 2540 kids for 180 places.

Although I work in education I live in a non-grammar area, so this is a revelation to me. Are all 2540 children on the “top table” or equivalent, or are some of their parents just hopeful/deluded/overambitious? There must be such pressure on those 10/11 year olds.

When I was in my state primary school… the only preparation we had for the 11+ was doing three past papers in successive weeks. I can’t remember if we even went over the answers afterwards. We only realised that the fourth one had been the real thing when there wasn’t another in the following week.

I think DCs only feel the pressure if parents put too much pressure on outcome. We as a nation test year 6 extensively anyway in KS2 SATs. I think our school did more than we did for the 11 plus so my DC remember that more than 11 plus. Plenty of schools use KS2 to inform setting and progress at secondary so society is not adverse to testing 10/11 year olds.
In a better world, KS2 and grammar tests would all be taken at the same time and inform each other.

The PP claimed that "there are lots of migrant kids in London who are used to selective education in their home countries". They are not. Even their parents are British born and went through British education system here in the UK.

Agree on all points.

Nonsense. KS2 is on a completely different level compared to some of the 11+ tests.

Most importantly, the KS2 test is a benchmark test, not a school entrance test, and serves a completely different purpose. It is irrelevant to secondary school entrance of course pressure level is very different for both kids and parents.

High attainment in KS2 is not the same the competitive level of the 11+ exams, which require intensive tutoring. Additionally, there is no VR or NVR in KS2.

I agree most of all on the point that pressure and stress come from parents who think grammar is be-all and end-all.

I think decades ago you needed to just be brighter than average (I got in with no tutoring and a few practice papers a couple of weeks before the exam, I don’t think that would fly now). But it’s intensely competitive and I think you do need to worry more about exam technique and familiarity with questions. I do know kids who have been tutored quite intensively over years but didn’t get in so it’s not like you can just buy yourself a place, you do have to have some potential.

I think there are some extremely bright kids out there who will walk it without much prep (I’ve known one or two at school who were literally geniuses) but theres a bell curve and most kids who get in will be bunched up around a band of scores say 116-120 for example, those are the ones fighting it out. If your kid is able to work a year ahead of the curriculum and is efficient I wouldn’t worry too much.

This all sounds extremely stressful, I’m not planning to tutor my child to death (I’m not in an extremely competitive area thank god) but I completely understand why parents want to make sure their children are well prepared. Especially when the alternative options aren’t fantastic.

I do think bright but not extraordinary children who don’t have money will miss out. The truly gifted ones I went to school with wouldn’t have needed extensive tutoring, some people really are that clever. I think we need to bring back gifted and talented programs in comprehensive schools.