How many kids do you know definitely leaving private for state?

[Quodraceratops]

I'd be very interested to know how many children people know of who are definitely leaving their private school for a state school - not people with plans to do so in future years, solely those definitely going now / in 2025.
For myself - large Scottish all years school, I only have knowledge of my early primary kids's classes - no-one leaving so far (but I'm guessing early primary may be less affected as Labour have been signalling this policy for a while so you wouldn't start if you couldn't afford VAT).

“WTF people couldn't be arsed to actually apply on time back in June I have no idea.“

@Sweetpeasaremadeforbees - the VAT policy was only announced end of July after Labour got in.

Are you in Winchester or Cambridge or London, by any chance?

Given that councils are collapsing due to financial pressures, I'd be astonished if the laws aren't changed to make it much, much harder to get local government to cover the costs of getting kids to school in the years ahead. "Offer a benefit to everyone because means-testing is expensive" tends to work out where a benefit is cheap to deliver. Transporting children about all over the countryside is really, really expensive.

My own feeling is that parents, including rural parents, should get their children to school themselves and cover any costs from this, unless they can plead special circumstances - Special School, or parents who are living in the countryside because they are doing an actual rural job there (as opposed to commuter-villagers) AND can demonstrate that they are genuinely unable to drive their kids to school for some reason. If an entire villageworth of people was saying "You, the local gov need to pay for shipping all our kids to school," I'd be asking hard questions. Because local governments are at risk of collapse and they are simply not going to be able to afford this in the years ahead.

I think people who want to go and live in a pretty village for lifestyle (not work) reasons need to think about this kind of thing carefully, not just assume that their local government is going to take care of this kind of stuff for them.

@GreenTeaLikesMe - how exactly is it their fault that successive governments have FAILED to invest in a universal and reliable public transport system for all? Like in other countries. Why can I go to Switzerland or Austria on holiday and get a reliable and punctual bus or train anywhere even in the most rural and remote places? And their children can. I know the answer- because they can actually organise shit over there, whereas we cannot. Why is that?

I've travelled in many countries, and I've never been anywhere where public transport is anything close to complete solution for rural areas (as in, something you can actually use to get to all your appointments and work and school and all the things a resident needs to do to live their lives). Not even in the Netherlands, or here in Japan, where we have superb transport in cities. You need a car if you live in the countryside. There really isn't any way round this - public transport just doesn't work very well in the countryside, as the population densities are too low to make it work.

Also, the conversation here is about "parents in the countryside who switch from private to state school." The great majority of rural dwellers in the UK own a car, the greater part have a car for every adult in the family, and among families who have hitherto been able to choose private school, there will be very few indeed who don't have a car, more likely two cars. Anyone who has enough money that private school was a serious consideration up to now but who nevertheless decides to live in the countryside for lifestyle reasons with no car is mad, frankly.

And where exactly did I say that all parents expect such a transport system to be entirely free? Organise a system and charge a reasonable amount. Subsidise it for those who really cannot afford it, but stop dishing things out for free to people who are not working by choice vs those actually going to work. It makes zero sense for us as a country.

It is good for children to develop independence and friendships by getting to school of their own accord. All children should be given that, it is a basic.

In rural USA, the yellow school bus does a round and picks everyone up to go their “local” school. Everyone in the district has an absolute right to a place at that school. If the school has to buy a portacabin, they buy a portacabin. The school can’t shrug and say, “sorry, we are full.”

That is what is causing the issue here.

Basically, I was responding to a previous poster who said that a lot of rural parents who previously used private schools would switch to state schools and then demand that the local government cover the cost of transportation to said state schools which were at a distance, and even suggested that parents would go out of their way to demand the cost of transportation out of spite (!).

My response was that this sort of thing should be means-tested, and that having local governments cover the cost of transportation to state school should be limited to cases where parents genuinely cannot manage or afford such transportation and have to live in the countryside.

@GreenTeaLikesMe I don't know if you're referring to me, but I certainly wouldn't demand transport out of spite: if our local schools are full (as is generally the case) kids get shipped to random villages all over the county and there is no public transport infrastructure. If DC's school closes and there isn't a place within walking/cycling distance, I will need the council transport to be able to get them to school. If you could tell me how I get them to a village school when there are no buses and I no longer have a driving licence, I'm all ears. Or should I have uprooted my entire family to a city where I'd have no support network as soon as my disability became clear and my licence was revoked?

You do realise that rural areas consist of small towns and villages as well as farms? Are we all supposed to move to the cities if we don't have an acceptable reason for living where we do?

@GreenTeaLikesMe - I think the trouble is that the word “spite” is loaded. I think there are a lot of higher rate and additional rate tax payer who input the max into the system and take very little out. Along comes a policy which directly negatively impacts their children and is perceived as a punishment and a deterrent. For those advocating for it, it is seen as “fair”.

We need to step back and apply legal principles. All children are entitled to state education and transport. If people change course because they feel penalised and undervalued by the system I do not see it as “spiteful”. They are just exercising what most others do anyway. And this is why some of us have been saying the VAT is crazy and won’t raise money.
It is like the politicians and the private schools are both in denial. Both believe they can just keep squeezing this group to the max.

And essentially because they have, as a group, been paying for everyone all along, I can see why one would assume that they will just keep doing so. But maybe not? And then what?

the VAT policy was only announced end of July after Labour got in.

Are you in Winchester or Cambridge or London, by any chance?

Labour have been saying they will do it since at least late last year (I think they actually first proposed it a few years ago) and everyone knew that they were going to win the election. The only uncertainty was when the election would be although it had to be in 2024. As I recall most people assumed it would be in the autumn but Rishi Sunak called it in May.

Any private school kids could have done what the rest do and apply to a few different schools/colleges, attend the interviews etc and make their decision when they get their GCSE results. The college say they will accept late applications if they have places on courses although clearly late applications overwhelmed them this year. Seems like not only will they accept late applications but they'll piss their current students around to accommodate them (with 'sincere apologies' of course).

No, it's in the West Midlands, a huge sixth form with a huge catchment.

With regard to transport, out council will only pay if you are more than 3 miles away AND you took the nearest school with available places. If you reject a place at your nearest school in favour of one further afield, you have to pay for transport.

We are in this position. Because DS goes to the grammar, even though it is over 3 miles, he could have chosen the closest secondary modern so we have to pay.

@@Sweetpeasaremadeforbees
from what I have read on these threads there was an expectation that the VAT would not come in until Sept 25 so perhaps these parents were taken by surprise and simply cannot afford the extra. There is a tipping point for people, especially if they have to remortgage in the near future because school fees are taking into the affordability calculation. So going onto a standard variable rate due to school fee increases of 25% in one year is entirely unaffordable for many, when you couple that with the huge mortgage rises too.

Your school is incentivised to welcome in such PS students as not only do they attract greater funding, they also tend to come from privileged families who support education and management may well think this will bolster results and therefore their perceived success overall. More funding theoretically should mean more experienced teachers and more teachers full stop.

I don't know about other 6th form colleges but at my DD's there are no behaviour issues in her classes because the kids actually chose to be there and some are travelling well over an hour by bus so they aren't going to waste any opportunities. Plus presumably it's easier for the college to get rid of students who aren't willing to put the work in.

I agree that the college will welcome the extra funding but I'm not sure that the support shown by parents will make a difference in the way that it probably would in a secondary school. If anything I suspect they may have unrealistic expectations. Whilst we're told if our kids skip lessons and we do have one parents evening a year, generally the students are very much expected to take responsibility for themselves, do extra work without it being timetabled etc., choose whether or not to attend sessions to help with Uni applications and parents have very little input at all. A friend who had a boy at private school told me this is nothing like a private school, where even in sixth form she had a lot of contact with the school.

If you have a disability that means you are not able to drive and need to live in an area where you have family support which happens to be rural in your case, of course you should be eligible for the local government providing school transport and covering the cost.

My post was in response to a post suggesting that huge numbers of wealthy rural residents would be demanding government funded school transport, despite the fact that the vast majority of such families would have cars and be able to drive.

I also am against oversqueezing the highest earners. At the end of the day, it is about getting a reasonable number of feathers without killing the goose or making it fly away!

Just making the point that if comfortably off rural types (and I do know what I am talking about - I have quite a few Range Rover type people on one side of my family!) were to start demanding gov-funded school transport as a previous poster seemed to be threatening, I would hope that the government would turn them down like a bedspread. I have no desire to punish them or whatever, but they need to cover this kind of thing themselves. School transport, given its huge cost, should be reserved for tricky cases (special school, family disability, difficult work circumstances).

Where would the line be drawn? Who decides who’s worthy of free transport? What motivation would councils have to provide adequate places where needed? Would parents needing to work and not being available to drive children be adequate?
Is living in the countryside now a “luxury good” like education?

If you live in the countryside and your nearest available school is more than 3 miles, then of course you should get government funded transport.

Nearest school to my village is a walk, train, long walk and would take over 30 mins by car.

Perhaps the council would like to build a new secondary school in walking distance? Otherwise I totally expect them to fund all children to get there.

Would cost a fortune in administrative time to means test for a start.

I'm pretty sure all kids in London are given free transport to school yes, all on buses, but TfL is taxpayer subsidised. Is that free transport somehow acceptable?

I suspect you have knowledge of a very different rural area to mine - about a quarter of DC's class live on working farms. For secondary, an hour's bus journey (council funded) is accepted as normal. Of course the buses can't go everywhere, hence the fortune that is spent on taxis. How on earth are parents supposed to work if they also have to do huge trips to the nearest/allocated school? It's also extremely rare for small village schools to offer wraparound care, so collecting after work is not an option.

A parent working cannot drive e.g 3 children in different directions before starting work. It is the Government’s job to plan enough schools and have a transport plan in place for all. If they fail to plan adequately, then they have to pay, for all children. Education is a fundamental Human Right and getting to school safely is part of that.
If a parent “chooses” a school further away rather than a perfectly adequate local school then transport becomes their problem. If they are allocated a school that is too far, then transport becomes the Government’s problem and cost.

Closing special schools was the worst mistake ever and numerous children are having to make ludicrous journeys across the country, at huge tax payer’s cost, but more importantly, at the detriment of those children! Those children need fresh air, exercise etc the most and are trapped on ludicrous journeys because the Government failed to plan and fund properly. Yet who gets the blame - middle class people insisting on their fundamental human rights! Time to wake up everyone. We are all in this together. Do not let the powers to be drive a wedge between different groups of parents! Our children are not in competition with each other. They are all equally special and valuable and deserve the best from us.

I posted on some other thread a while ago that I'm a bit worried for 6th form admissions for my DC next year. If, as seems likely from my straw poll of DC's friends, many will be applying for state 6th form, is it going to put a squeeze on spaces? We had a shortlist of 3 local-ish 6th forms, all highly-regarded and so I expect they'll be getting a record number of applicants next year. I wonder if it's possible for some kids to end up with no 6th form place at all?

Where are your dc currently at school @TinyCarpetRake?

We’re in an area with no grammar schools and only 1 private in the whole county so fortunately it’s not a concern here.

Our local 6th form criteria places applicants from county state schools higher up the oversubscription criteria than those applicants coming from private schools FWIW.

I'm very glad to hear that.