Labour advised to finish closing all grammars

[twistyizzy]

Advice currently being given to Labour by same group that support VAT on private schools.

OK, my argument is that if a bright child gains access to a super-selective grammar school at age 11, they will have the same, if not greater, accessibility to sixth-form education based on their own merit, with less influence from parents. If a bright child does not have access grammar at age 11, they will still have the opportunity to choose their path at sixth-form. Therefore, the 11-plus exam and super-selective grammar schools are unnecessary. Instead, there should be more high-performing sixth-form colleges for aspirational students, which are more equal and less socially selective than at age 11.

My DC could go to an agricultural college or a top performing grammar for sixth form (and lots of other options within 15 miles). I believe in choice, passionately.

And I’m talking about the pupils who get all 8’s and 9’s at GCSE but don’t have the option of a top performing sixth form.

And I think you are deluded if you believe that GCSE results are not impacted by tutoring.

My equally talented child was taught in classes alongside those with target grades of 2s and 3s for some of their GCSEs. It would not be feasible or economically viable to offer the type of selective education you prefer in vast swathes of the country.

I believe in both. You say that my DC’s school is unnecessary so I presume that you haven’t had to deal with a child that is bored because school is too easy for them. Even when they are in the top set and doing extension work.

And I think you are deluded if you believe that GCSE results are not impacted by tutoring.

Of course they will be impacted, but again I would moot a lot less than 11+.

people may tutor in 2 or 3 subjects for GCSE they are particularly weak in (or want to make even stronger). They are unlikely to tutor in 8-10.

All this hand wringing, you'd think from these posts that children at comprehensive schools absolutely cannot achieve anything in life

They are likely to achieve the same A-level grades, attend the same university, study the same subject, and earn the same first-class degree. The advantages of faster pace and advanced curriculum learning for already self-driven, high-achieving students have not been shown to significantly affect academic success in later stages. At least, I am not aware of any evidence to support this—perhaps someone else can provide some.

It would absolutely be economically viable to have super selective grammars in all counties. Grammars don’t get any extra money, in fact they often get less per pupil.

And as for your DC, you may be happy with that but I wouldn’t be happy with it for either my DC or for those with a 2 or 3 as a target. Completely unfair for both. They each need classes tailored to their level.

But it’s not all about achievement, why are people so obsessed with measures?! It’s about enjoying school and a positive learning experience. I hated my GCSE English classes because there were other people in the class that could barely read or write. I was frustrated, bored and fed up of people who were struggling messing around because the work was too difficult for them and that was their way of dealing with it. School shouldn’t be something to be endured.

Just to point out England still has superselective grammars that have no catchment so any child in the whole country can apply and get a place. And the parents could then theoretically move. These places are very competitive though and at least some level of academically giftedness is required (the definition varies).

My personal view is that it is far easier to tutor a just above average child to do really well at GCSE than for an 11 plus which includes at least 50 per cent of the exam on reasoning, but again, people’s opinions differ.

Is it really necessary to create a special type of school just because a child is bored? Does this qualify as SEN? I haven’t encountered a self-driven bright child who couldn’t find enough engaging activities inside or outside school. Maybe it is a thing.

It’s not SEN but is the same concept. Children need education that’s tailored to their needs. And there are plenty of bright boys who are let down by comprehensives that don’t engage them. Boys tend to mess about and get into trouble when they are bored. I want lots of choice, a policy that reduces choice is ridiculous.

"And there are plenty of bright boys who are let down by comprehensives that don’t engage them. Boys tend to mess about and get into trouble when they are bore"

In the comprehensive schools I’m familiar with, I haven’t seen this issue. Boys generally tend to proactively discover their own interests and passions.

You know that there is a lot of differentiation in comprehensive schools? One size fits all doesn't mean all the children in a comprehensive get the same teaching. My DC did very well in their comprehensive school (which despite being a comp is high up in the national listings) but so have the children who weren't so academic. Schools don't teach a homogeneous group if they're any good.

How do you think bright kids cope where there are no comps?

Comprehensive School - 300 pupils per year intake.
Split into two bands of five 30 pupil classes

Each subject group spit into five levels of ability setting - across the tutor groups

Top set science : Triple Science expecting top grades
Second set : triple expecting middling grades
Third set : double expecting top grades
Fourth set : double expecting middling grades
Fifth set : single compulsory science

All sets reviewed each academic year
Same for Maths
Same for Humanities
Same for Languages
Same for Sports
Same for Arts

It works.
Only tutor companies stand to lose out

Exactly. Although ours is slightly smaller!

Plus pupils don't have the decision fixed at age 11. They can move between the sets.

You seem to have worked in very lovely comprehensives. I can’t say the ones I’ve taught in quite match your experiences!

Do you think I haven’t experienced a comp?! I went to one.

But those at a super selective grammar may not be challenged by the top set in your school. Is your top set working beyond GCSE level in year 9?

There is no need for the pupils to
move between sets at my DC’s grammar because they don’t need sets (apart from
maths). It’s also not impacting any comps so I don’t know why you would have a problem
with a child receiving an education that meets their needs.

@Dibblydoodahdah
"Working beyond level 9"
Oh get over yourself.

Richard Feynman's parents kept him in his correct year and sets and extended him sideways.
They understood the difference between genius and pushy parents

In my daughters year at her comp, one of the girls got the hat in further maths GCSE
that put her in the top 1500 pupils nationally
she went on to get a first in MORSE at Warwick
being mixed in with other bright kids did not pollute her learning

It still strains the teacher resources in the area, and the students who are nearby do not have access to it. How do we define the boundaries to ensure it doesn’t have a local impact? Based on the number of students’ travel distances? But really, it is a lesser problem compared to concentrating grammar areas. I’m less concerned if they’re not actually depleting resources. Tbh, I don’t think this is a special need nor essential, though I understand pushy parents often seek a competitive environment for their children, as long as it does not come at the expense of other parents and schools.

Get over yourself. I was in the top sets at my school. My DC is on a whole different level to me, as are all the other boys in his school. It’s nothing to do with being a pushy parent. I didn’t even teach him to read. He picked up a book and read it himself at age 3. He’s not been tutored and I’ve not helped him with homework for years. He mainly plays sports outside school anyway. He’s naturally bright, it runs down the line in my mum’s family. Unfortunately I got my dad’s brains!

And where did I say working beyond level 9 anyway. You misquoted me.

And the polluting learning talk is just ridiculous.

@Dibblydoodahdah Your son is the first child I’ve known to get into a top super-selective grammar school without tutoring. This is special.

I’m not pushy. If I’d been pushy, I would have tutored my youngest to try to get him in. I just want happy children who enjoy their schools. I hated mine.

As for boundaries, there are pupils from over 60 primaries in my DC’s year at grammar. There is no local impact.

In also don’t believe that it strains teacher resources. Many of the teachers simply wouldn’t teach at a comp. Not because they are anti-comp but because they simply aren’t suited to teaching kids with a wide range of abilities. That’s a different skill set.

I believe your DC are still an exception on in such a school. For example, one of the tutor centers in Harrow, which charge thousands pounds and years tutoring, proudly announces every year that it sends 40-50 boys to the most selective boys’ grammar school in the country. In most cases, it’s the parents who demanded this kind of school rather than the kids.