Labour advised to finish closing all grammars

[twistyizzy]

Advice currently being given to Labour by same group that support VAT on private schools.

Most grammar schools have sixth forms with entrance standards similar to other sixth form colleges. This isn’t seen as controversial because it offers universal access. Additionally, as previously mentioned, the age at which students enter makes a significant difference.

But many children don’t have the choice to study at a highly selective sixth form for A Levels, that’s exactly the point I am making. Also, if you bothered to read my previous posts properly, I am advocating for super selective grammars not a full grammar system. Comprehensive schools can (and do) teach three sciences.

think it’s totally reasonable to have selection for sixth form, but only certain pocket area offer super-selective grammar schools for the 11-plus are pretty pointless and don’t add much value.

The reality is that these “super sixth forms” are just as selective as many grammars and are not an option for many bright students because they don’t have one in their area…but no one has an issue with them.

The key difference is that sixth-form selection occurs five years later, when students are more mature.

@Dibblydoodahdah as you may now have gathered, I live in a comprehensive for all area. Exactly what is on offer to your DS at his school which distinguishes it from your other child's school?

I didn’t say it wasn’t reasonable…but some are far more selective than others. And not every bright young person has access to a very selective sixth form. And what do you mean by “adding value”? I value education by my DC’s happiness and mental wellbeing. Which is why they go to different schools because they have completely different needs.

What about the academically able ones who didn't??

I started at a crap comp after leaving primary as a straight A* pupil. I left after five years without a single qualification.

Once I left (escaped), I did evening classes/adult education to get qualifications to A level and then started chartered accountancy exams (again evening/part time/self study) and finally qualified as a chartered accountant and then went onto take Institute of Taxation exams.

I did all that DESPITE my crap comp "education", the school had nothing to do with it. The crap comp absolutely ruined my teenage years.

Sixth forms are significantly more accessible than grammar schools due to their larger capacities, widespread availability, and universal integration within the education system. This accessibility allows bright young students to independently choose a suitable sixth form that aligns with their true abilities and aspirations.

The pace at which he learns and the depth of the subject area. His year 9 science exams were more difficult than GCSE papers. My younger child simply wouldn’t be ready for that, even though he’s very good at maths and science. I suspect he will be in top sets for some subjects when he moves to secondary but so was I and my oldest is far more academic than I was. At the grammar, even pupils in the bottom set at maths go on to take maths and further maths at A Level. There’s no way I could have coped with that and I was in the top set for maths at my comp.

Except that not all bright students have access to a very selective sixth form. They don’t have the option to move to a different part of the country to access one.

@Dibblydoodahdah
When a high performing 6th form has a "catchment" that reaches
from the Isle of Wight to Reading
from Wiltshire to Surrey and Sussex
with (slightly) subsidised transport covering that whole patch
its pretty much available to all in a large area

By any standard, sixth forms offer a far greater chance of access compared to grammar schools through the 11-plus exam, especially considering the critical factor of the entrance age.

Interestingly, it’s quite ironic that some parents relocate across the country for super-selective grammar schools for the 11-plus, but not the option from the kid itself.

Would it lift results or just lower them across the board

You’re talking about one “part” of the country. And covering such a wide area means the daily commute would be ridiculous for many. Take the city that I grew up in. The highest performing sixth form is at a private school. There’s no high performing state option like Brampton Manor or Hills Road.

I don't think it's fair in one country like England that parents paying the same taxes have different kinds of schools eg I was about 9 when the grammar school system was abolished in the NE of England around 1970. It should go everywhere or else grammars be available everywhere. (I have no skin in the game as paid school fees and obviously am very against the VAT and business rates proposals).

Starmer's children when they were at primary age went to a state school where you had to live within 300 yards of the school and where house prices cost £2m or something of that order (I don't know which secondary school they attend)

@Dibblydoodahdah
Peter Symonds has a catchment that actually extends as far as the Falklands,

Dozens of kids cross from the Isle of Wight every day.
Hundreds and hundreds from the outer reaches of the catchment
every day
some of them to do qualifications in beauty and healthcare
others to do A level Further Maths
it is THEIR choice

Unlike tutored selection at 11

You still don’t seem to understand that all sixth forms are not equal and that some are now grammar schools by the back door. The type of parents that are invested in their DC’s education will do their best to get them in a school that meets their needs at 11, they won’t wait until 16.

You’re not understanding what I am saying. I am talking about high performing sixth forms that only offer A Levels and get loads of kids into Oxbridge (and in some cases the top US universities) I’m not talking about sixth forms that offer health and beauty. All kids have the option of the latter, but they don’t all have the option of the former.

The key differences lie in accessibility, entrance age, and the initiating party. Nearly every students in the country must achieve the national curriculum GCSE grade to enter sixth form (super selective or not). This process is universal and not driven by parental tutoring.

I’m not talking about every sixth form though am I?! My argument is not that all sixth forms are the same as grammars. My argument is that some sixths forms are as selective as grammars and not all bright students have access to those sixth forms. You conveniently seem to be ignoring that!

@Talkinpeace Why do you think secondary schools in grammar areas don’t offer triple science? The ones I mentioned earlier in Bucks ALL offer triple science. They have higher achieving DC. You views are dated and wrong. Just anti grammar dogma. In areas with lots of high achieving DC, non grammars can and do offer triple science. Dc are not unable to achieve decent GCSEs. FM at A level would be a challenge but any good mathematician could go to a grammar 6th form,

Yes Labour really hate children. It was Labour who cut school funding to the bone, drove all the teachers away, put record numbers of children into poverty, created a horrendous curriculum and punitive inspection system, cut child benefit, decimated the Arts, got rid of all of a huge number of the children's centres, closed the Libraries, presided over a record increase in mental health issues and suicide in teenagers, closed record numbers of football pitches, decimated the support services and Support for Special Needs not to mention the cuts to the NHS and social care causing record waiting lists for mental health treatment and Diagnostic assessments for SEN as well as massive increase in safeguarding issues.
Oh wait. Ask anyone who works with children which party has children's interests more at heart. They will tell to how different it was under the last Labour government. Anyone who thinks it is Labour who hate children is utterly delusional.

I would moot that matters far less than grammars at age 11.

For A levels you have to meet at least minimum criteria anyway, and criteria for entry is on the public GCSEs that the student has agency over how hard they work, rather than parental organisation and ability to pay for tutoring.

If a student doesn't get into a 6th form requiring eg 60 GCSEs points from best 8, they can probably still get a space to do the exact same curriculum somewhere that only requires 45 points.

At 6th form too, especially for A levels, all the students have made an active choice to continue with studying particular subjects, so behaviour should be improved.

So happy to be in Hants. DD loves her agricultural college.

If these non grammars have loads of high achieving pupils, why bother with having the grammars in the first place?