Labour advised to finish closing all grammars

[twistyizzy]

Advice currently being given to Labour by same group that support VAT on private schools.

yes, I support VAT on private schools but can absolutely see the irony if others who supported it then start complaining about grammar closures.

That is how it was. But these days it seems to be more about being organised and well off enough to pay for tutoring up front.

I live in an all comp county. So much less stress for everyone!

Hallelujah. We lived in a grammar school the pressure put on children is fucking ridiculous. They've also been shown to do absolutely nothing in terms of improving the outcome for those children or for those at the non grammar schools.
I will be delighted if this happened.
My daughter ended up at the grammar because her only other choice was a girls school under grammar School was by far our nearest school. The pressure put on some of her classmates to pass the 11 plus was horrendous. We didn't bother with tutoring and just used some books. It did her no favours, wasn't bad or good. My other kids went to other schools (non grammar) and have done equally well. In fact I would say that the other schools have been better in many ways as far more rounded.
What they did do was create division in our area. They're lovely primary School was split up into so many different schools and the kids really felt the split.
90% of the kids at the grammar school have been tutored and were a totally different demographic to the local kids.

This interpretation of history is distorted - a child who succeeded in a grammar could have succeeded in a comp. It is comparing apples and pears. It may have been system justification due to the unfairness of the opportunity this person received. ( for your loss) Of course a grammar offered better opportunities than a secondary modern. But overall the system is shite and is only supported due to social exclusion which parents are keen to perpetuate.

Indeed. And worse, they disproportionately get Oxbridge places due to being “state”. They’re about as state as a Bupa hospital.

Oh stop being so melodramatic. Your private school isn’t “fucked”, it just needs to put its fees up by 10%.

As for the grammar schools… well, if we want our society to be fully inclusive then we need to look closely at what actually is required to get a place in a highly selective school. The fact is that if you can’t afford to invest in tutoring your “averagely bright” doesn’t stand a chance.

In my area there are no grammars but there are still schools which select based on testing in Y6. They are grammars in all but name. I can’t see this changing unless there are new restrictions put on Academy schools to limit how they set their entrance criteria.

I don’t want society to be equal.

I want there to be equity, but we should also acknowledge some people are cleverer than others and support them because we need very educated people.

All failing together might seem nice and equal but it would be a disaster.

The biggest inequality isn't comp vs grammar. Its the house price catchments. The value of housing around these ex grammar schools will rise significantly as patents will percieve them as desirable.

The "ex-grammar" locally is still perceived by many to be "better"... even though other schools on the area have better results (and similar ofsted reports)

It is true madness. Heaven forbid a bright child should be encouraged. It is time that the Great British public realised that not all children are going to be neurosurgeons, some will just about manage to scrape a single GCSE. We need to stop telling children they can be whatever they want to be" because that is a lie.
Let's encourage all children to be their best. But we need to take the best and give them every opportunity we can. But this is Britain and that isn't allowed.

Do you think no clever people are educated in areas without grammar schools?

Grammar schools underperform, they have lower standards of teaching and rely on the motivations of the pupils themselves. The kids in grammars would benefit from the higher teaching standards seen in good comprehensives.

Honestly, some people think grammars are doing something special. How gullible! Grammars are there to maintain social divides, not provide a better education.

No type of political tinkering with the education system will thwart the desire of the middle classes to flock together and ensure that their precious children are separated from the riff-raff.
This is not about educational outcomes, it is about maintaining social class.

If they abolish grammars in the few counties that still have them, you will just get selection by house price as now exists in all other counties.

I doubt it. People still pay a premium to go to decent comps just along the road in Hertfordshire and you are close enough to London to be commuter belt. Similarly rheee are pockets around the country where house prices are higher in decent comp catchment

Do you think 'the best' are all in counties with grammars??

You think there are no bright children in comps.

You dont need a grammar school to encourage a child. You need a good school and inspiring teachers. There are these in comps across the country.

Grammars are simply about social exclusion - and it is OK to be honest about that. Everyone knows why people want their kids to go to grammars - snobbery.

I didn’t say my private was fucked. I said grammars would get fucked - which presumably is true is they can no longer select kids based on exams. My private isn’t selective anyway.

The prices in Marlow are very high, as there is one grammar within the town, and several within catchment. There is a small train that goes to a main station and then into London. The place is full of children going to the grammar school. Many of those will now move and use the money to get into independents. Well, that's what they have been saying.

If they abolish grammars in the few counties that still have them, you will just get selection by house price as now exists in all other counties. This is true but at least it is honest! There is something so irritating about the pretence that grammars are about 'encouraging bright children'

Comps are perfectly capable of supporting high achievers and helping pupils come our with strings of 8s and 9s at GCSE.
Just in full grammar areas like Kent and bucks the other schools aren't comps.

Good. Grammars are just school for pushy middle class parents to tutor their children into instead of paying for private whilst they retain their holidays and lifestyle.

It didn't start like that in the beginning, but, it's what it has become.

Thanks for the geography lesson. I am a Bucks girl. There are also grammars in High Wycombe and Beaconsfield and people travel there too. And believe it or not have cars so aren't just reliant of a local train connection to mainline. I will await their mass migration to indies if grammars are phased out. It won't happen and if they are there already they will remain in their selective setting.

All of my kids went to grammar schools. I'd happily vote for them to be abolished.

Yes - as I said, in catchment. Bucks is expensive and one of the reasons is the number of grammar schools in the area. But hey - what do I know. (Bucks girl here, as well) Do you know how much money the parents "invest" in their 11+ tuition? How many people move to the area specifically to be "in catchment"?

Not specifically no. The same as I don't know how many specifically pay similar premiums to move near to good comps in Berks and Oxon and Hertfordshire and Surrey to be near those good comps where properties are similarly as expensive.

There's such a small number of grammar schools that I think closing the is sensible. Most areas don't have then anyway. I think you have to feel sorry for the kids that are hot housed with tutors at age 10 to get in.

I think you have to feel sorry for the ones who are hot housed, the ones who get in, the ones who nearly get in and are crushed, the ones who dont get in.

Comprehensive education is brilliant.

Grammars are a great old load of social segregation and the parents who buy into it are wallies.

I dont know what the national average is for FSM in schools but DDs grammar has about 23% uptake. I'm notnsire if nearly 1/4 on FSM counts as socially selective but maybe someone will correct me in a moment?