Labour advised to finish closing all grammars

[twistyizzy]

Advice currently being given to Labour by same group that support VAT on private schools.

Yes CAT score can absolutely be skewed by 11 plus related tutoring. We can 100% disagree each other on this matter of tutorable without adding any more substance.

So you don't consider poor, recent immigrants to be part of the working class?

Yes, Lincs is the midlands.

Currently, academic selection is much more about "achievement" at 11+ than on "ability". That produces a group which is relatively homogeneous in prior achievement which can predictably continue to achieve well.

If you change the selection criteria to pure ability, perhaps something correlated with an "untutorable" IQ test, you will end up with a group which is not so homogeneous in prior achievement. That may be a good thing in that it should be biased less towards DC from highly resourced families. However, it will also produce a group which probably will not achieve so consistently.

Consider the possibility of a high ability child who demonstrates poor achievement because of poor family resources and an unstable home situation. Why would you expect this child to suddenly start achieving highly just because they are placed in a classroom with other high ability children? Would you expect that to overcome whatever was "holding them back" before?

There may be advantages to children learning with others of similar ability. But some of the current characteristics of grammar schools, such as the degree of discipline and hard work, will likely dissipate if you change selection from achievement to ability.

Gosh, is it? 🤔🤣

You know that the north south divide is quite often thought to be below Lincs?

I do think there is a mismatch, based on what you described, between what was discussed earlier and what is actually on offer.

The special need and demand I keep hearing about in this thread is for high-ability kids, specifically the top 5% (i quote) in terms of intelligence, with minimal tutoring assistance, regardless of background. These group of students require a special environment that gives them the opportunity to be challenging and thrive from Year 7.

However, I believe that the characteristics of those super-selective grammar schools are attracting the students not only have good ability but essentially achieve through hard work and significant family support. As you mentioned, families believe that fast-paced learning in a homogeneous environment will be beneficial.

You might think you are being clever but you are just making yourself look like a plank. I said that the majority were in the SE and the Midlands. And I am correct.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

Added to that, those that are in the North are concentrated in the NW. Why shouldn’t very bright kids in Sheffield, Leeds, Hull, Newcastle etc have the same opportunity as my DS?

And I said that there are grammar schools in the north. Which there are. Even you can see they exist in the NW or is that the wrong North? Especially if you take the map I posted as indicative of the north.

You're the one who made a rude sweeping statement about people in the north not knowing the difference between grammar and private.

There aren’t really. There’s Trafford, Lancs, the Wirral, Cumbria, one in Liverpool and a few in Yorkshire. If you said your child was going to grammar in Newcastle, for example, people would think you meant what was the independent Royal Grammar School (which has now changed its name). There are literally none in the NE and they’re in very concentrated areas in the NW.

@user149799568 Yes. I do consider the immigrants poor and I consider very bright people who do low paid work poor too. Badly phrased on my behalf.

However I stand by my argument that since the tripartite education system we have been able to turn very many people from working class to middle class. These are the people whose grandchildren or dc inhabit the top unis and grammars. I don’t believe the pool of Uk working class and gifted is very big.

We surely understand that 62% of 18 year olds still don’t go to uni. So clearly thousands are getting work and training elsewhere. Of course I accept some might be very bright and hopefully get PP money and guidance on their futures. I support homework clubs for example. However we do not have very bright dc who come from generations of factory workers as we used to. Poor is not quite the same if you could have got a good job after your degree, but didn’t want to. Or you have spent all your savings from a decent job abroad getting here and are poor until you find your feet.

We have also had movement away from working class areas by the middle class. This is why school performance varies by area and background of dc.

Tory shires nailed their colours to the mast on keeping grammars in the Shirley Williams Labour era. They prevaricated and didn’t budge. Other areas, Labour, gave in willingly and became comprehensive. So those people didn’t think they needed grammars. Other people thought they wanted to keep them. Some grammars became private as did some direct grant schools.

Sheffield is the North/South dividing line. Areas below Sheffield are ‘midlands’ (Derbyshire, Nottingham) so are not north.

The north was often meant to be above the Humber (Northumbria) which would kick Sheffield out.

Its not Lincs. Lincs is Midlands

I would say that is an opinion. I say that as a northerner by any definition. So many places that offer an example of the north south divide show it far lower than Sheffield. The midlands is a different descriptor.

See my follow up posts on what is the north @Moglet4

Here in the proper South we know that only Kent is truly afflicted with Grammar schools.

Most of the sane counties manage to have none,
most others have less than a handful.

Astoundingly our children still get good degrees and good jobs.

I didn’t make a rude sweeping statement. I am Northern, Yorkshire born and bred. And where I come from if you say your child is going to grammar, they will presume you mean Leeds Grammar, Bradford Grammar, QUEGS…I never said that there weren’t Grammar schools in the North but there are huge parts of the North that don’t have state grammar schools which is what this thread is about. I really don’t know what your problem is.

Yeah I’m from Sheffield. No grammars in S. Yorks at all.

The Northern Independence Party use the Humber as their dividing line.

I live in Sheffield. We’re bottom of the north. Anything below us is Midlands. Not an opinion, just how it is across our area.

Manchester is north, Cheshire is pushing it, Staffs is not north. (Lived in Manchester a long time)

The Midlands are not part of the ‘Northern Powerhouse’

Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds and Liverpool are. All the big industrial northern cities on the same latitude more or less are where the north starts.

It’s not opinion, it’s just how it is.

I’m a Northerner 🙄 Anything below Sheffield is not the North

It’s actually a common misconception that Finland closed its private schools. It didn’t. It just banned making a profit from education (so rather like our private schools that are charities).

That is seriously an opinion. There are many different opinions to be found.

No it’s not.

Sheffield is bottom of the North.

Its just ridiculous that Lincolnshire is northern. It just isn’t.

I’ve lived in Sheffield and Manchester. They are northern according to everyone who lives there. No one thinks Lincolnshire is in the north.

Who decides this mysterious northern thing? Northerners seem the best qualified.

Where are these conflicting opinions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_England

It doesn’t include Lincolnshire on Wikipedia.

My parents went to state grammars in the North (proper North - NE - Sunderland etc) as they passed the 11 plus which was their route out of poverty really and became a doctor (psychiatrist) and teacher respectively. That change of the child from one class to another in a sense which can also make the child different and alien from the place from which it came and may be puts it between two worlds in some ways is what some of the grammars did. Whether that is good or bad of course is another thing. There were also later direct grant schools such as back in the day Newcastle royal grammar which was mentioned earlier on the thread and is now 100% private school. When i was at school we had teachers in the area compaigning to "save the Direct Grant schools" - as I believe tht was part state funding and parent parental funding but only based on income level of parent so a pretty good mixture of rich and poor and you paid if you were better off and it was free if you were not. The assisted places scheme later was then abolished which was a bit along similar lines although tended just to mean a very few children with fees paid in private schools.

Then my parents paid fees for us from age 5 - 18 and we have done the same for their 9 grandchildren and into the next generation now - subject of course to the impact of Labour's change - VAT and business rates which are not yet in effect.

It would be quite neat if we private school parents could get all state grammars abolished so the holier than thou left wing champagne socialists smugly saying they went state when all they did was pay for a posh school via house price or expensive tutoring end up at the local comp when they have been so glad to see fee paying parents who already pay vast amounts of tax have to pay even higher school fees.

People buy the house they can afford. It’s not about ‘Champagne Socialism’

If l had lots of money I’d buy in a nice area. Wouldn’t anyone?