Struggling to pay for 6th form

[Charliesunnysky10]

DP & I both attended local state schools and had a tough time getting an education, so when our daughter wanted to go to an independent school for secondary (yrs 7-11), we made arrangements to set aside enough to fund the 5 years. My Dad wasn't too happy and said that the house was not to be mortgaged to pay fees (my mum sadly died 4 years earlier and left us enough to pay off the mortgage). However, there was regular overtime available at DP's work so we managed okay. We hadn't factored in the cost of living increase and I took a 2nd job for the evenings and weekends to ensure we could cover this last year (11).

However, daughter had said she would attend a state sixth form, but has in the last year become desperate to stay at the independent school (she wants to be a dentist and needs AAA which is regularly achieved at her current school's 6th form, but nowhere else locally). On the plus side, she got good mock results (8 x grade 9's and 3 x grade 8's) and when she had the post mock chat about sixth form with school they said they were very keen to keep her for A levels.

However, I'm honestly dead, working a 60 hour week, DP's overtime is sporadic and we can't meet the fees for another 2 years (I sold my car, and walk to both jobs). I've asked my dad again if we could remortgage but he is completely against this and says Mum mum didn't leave me the money for this. He said she has a better chance of getting into Uni going to a state school anyway. I just doubt she'd get the AAA - he says what will be will be.

I spoke with school and they said there is a bursary available and daughter's grades would stand her in good stead. However, reading the application form I'm asked why I can't liquidate assets and I think this is a weak reason. I wouldn't want to go against Mum's wishes but I do feel this is more Dad's take on the situation.

I really don't know what to do, and DP says it's not his parents or money so can't comment, but if it makes me feel any better, he says he's also torn between just applying for bursary and risk them thinking we are unreasonable, and remortgaging, but working like mad for another 2 years to pay it back ASAP.

What would you do?

The only problem moving into a school 6th form is that she was probably at primary school with some of the other pupils - and this can cause problems with bullying in quite a small pond. In my area there is not much choice for secondary schools so if my dd (also y11 at independent school) were to move back the state sector she'd probably have to go to a 6th form college or a school quite far way. Also friendships are very well established generally by 6th form and it can be difficult for a newcomer.

I’d go against my dad’s wishes to help give my child the education they want and need. Your dad is being intransigent about this because he is fearful that you will lose the house and as his daughter I am assuming he wants you to be safe and secure (unless you have given him reason in the past to think you are irresponsible with money?).

You need to speak to your dad and tell him you are going ahead with this anyway and that you would like his blessing. You need to keep in mind that uni is very expensive too and the best way of managing all of this might be a small mortgage. Good luck.

Edited to say that: imho one of the most important factors in academic success during the teen years is the work ethic of your child’s classmates and their families and their friendship group.

It’s important that your dd is in an environment where she can study hard and where it’s cool to do that and she’s not ridiculed for it. I went to a state school where there was bullying and a drugs issue and I was made to feel like a pariah for having ambition and frankly it held me back.

@Manthide Wow! Well done to her! And good luck to your daughter in Y11.

I wish we’d been brave enough to apply for a bursary in Y7 – even a small one would have helped. I later found out families much wealthier than us got a 5% bursary. But we were just relieved she got a place as the poor state provision locally (2 inadequate, 1 requires improvement) meant the school was hugely oversubscribed and daughter badly wanted to go. The bursary application also meant an additional aptitude test, and panel interview – we were concerned that as a shy, uncoached applicant, we dare not risk her not getting in at all.

I am finding the assumption that state schools are hotbeds of bullying and low achievement deeply depressing.

@Charliesunnysky10 As I said, I think you should go for school rather than college. Don't listen to the doomsayers on here- state schools are full of hard working, high achieving kids and your dd will be fine if she has to move. Please don't knock yourselves out keeping her at her current school-that's not fair on her or on you. She probably won't find lacrosse in a state school, sadly. But there may be a local club-there are two not far from us. Certainly worth looking.

@CurlewKate

About them being headhunted.

A number of people went to open days and spoke to staff promoting themselves. Some met with admissions officers for the school who discussed their application in more depth and showed them around various areas. Then were told they’d look out for their application coming through.

Does that make it clearer?

@CurlewKate

At my previous school, Oxford were in touch with them and asked them to send over potential candidates meeting X criteria for interview (15-20yrs ago). The preferential treatment via admissions within the last 5-10 years that I know of.

To think that stuff like that hasn’t gone on is to be incredibly naive.

I am finding the assumption that state schools are hotbeds of bullying and low achievement deeply depressing.

CurlewKate if you are referring to my post, among others, I don’t say that. I said that was my individual experience which is a very different thing. My state sixth form was a hotbed of racism too btw.

It’s equally naieve to assume that all state schools are great and all private ones are terrible. The reality is that there are both good and poor examples of both.

Of course not all state school sixth forms have poor academic achievement and bullying issues, there are some truly excellent state sixth form colleges, but it depends if there are any near to where op’s dd lives.

I also stand by my statement that once dc get to the teenage years, their friendship group and their work ethic, is a massively important and influential factor when it comes to fulfilling academic potential.

We also didn't apply for a bursary for dd1 as we thought it would prejudice our application- and our doubts about her academic ability. Dd2 went the following year, again with no bursary though dh had started earning more so it was doable. She was always on the gifted and talented list so we knew she'd have no problems.
Unfortunately dd3 who is 16/14 years younger than them came to secondary age when our finances had plummeted. I'd have been quite happy for her to go to the local state school as she had a good group of friends but she wanted to go to her sister's old school - hence the bursary.

@StandardLFinegan Thank you. I have noticed in this past year particularly, how peer-influenced she is.

I also notice that while I've not heard of bullying going on (there is huge focus on inclusivity; helping peers and those in younger year groups), when there have been new girls join the school and approach her friendship group, they are accepted but it takes a good while to settle as even the most confident friendly newcomer alters the dynamic slightly.

I would say she's more introvert and would come across a bit jolly hockey sticks/bookish, even of her independent school friend circle she is regarded as such, though it isn't considered a bad thing as there are plenty of others. I think despite being good at sport, she would struggle to fit in and it might affect her ability to do achieve her potential.

The OP has already said that she has 2 inadequate and 1 requires improvement schools in her catchment. I don’t think anyone can argue with those ofsted ratings! I’m concerned about the ‘good’ one we are next to and contemplating a change of religion to get in the outstanding faith school. Even then I am minded towards private but I need a fall back if we have a change in financial circumstances.

I don’t agree with private / state but where we have a government that doesn’t care and as such then send their own kids to private as they all know they have failed! All MPs should be banned from sending their kids to private schools or going through private medical insurance. Then they all might focus on the important things in society other than party politics and when their breakfast/lunch/evening paid for speeches (bungs)!

One more point is that financing for her university education will go on your household income. It won’t go on your hourly rate! If you are working 2/3 jobs and all the overtime going, the government won’t see this as out of the ordinary, they will assume you only work 37hours and you are in very well paid jobs. This therefore has a huge knock on effect. Many lower their income before the income assessment, hide their wage in their company etc.

Just sit down and tell your dad your plans to take out a small loan to pay for 2 years of schooling, that you aren’t in any debt now but you want to also enjoy your daughter before she goes off to uni so want to reduce your need for a second job. You are aiming for a bursary, child has a job and will contribute towards her extras (sport/uniform) (shows not pampered pooch mentality) but you have also realised your second jobs and overtime will mean she gets less university funding. You are only working with a government system that for your area doesn’t work (very poor schools and 6th form too much of a risk). It’s not likely to be the same as when he was a teacher or was at school! And not wanting to be rude but the state school you went to has meant you are in a low paying job so he must know the system doesn’t work now!

Ps if you pay the school fee in advance you normally get a 10% discount and there are other good suggestions from others here.

I think the key here to explain to your Dad is to show him you have a strategy. I am also minded that it’s your decision but I am also very well aware the emotional side of things, especially when you are so close and see him everyday! Hopefully this makes it emotionally easier for you.

@StandardLFinegan "It’s equally naieve to assume that all state schools are great and all private ones are terrible. The reality is that there are both good and poor examples of both."
If that was directed to me, then I don't. And haven't. But nobody has had a single good word to say about state schools and the OP has been told that her child will be bullied and will under achieve if she goes to a state 6th form, so she should work herself into the ground to prevent that happening.I think it's important to offer an alternative view.

@kaleidoscope123 Thank you. I could have cried reading your reply because like others seemed to understand the unsaid things as well as those I outlined.

I've dropped down to minimum contracted hours now at my second job, to be around, helping with any testing, eating right and making sure she's in bed for 11pm as DP works earlies and is asleep by 10pm. I used to get home from the office at 5pm, get the tea on the table and be at the bar for 6pm till close (and it's a residents bar so could be 1am finish if there was a function).

The bursar will see from my tax code I've a second job so I've explained that our income is inflated and this isn't sustainable at it's current level.

Explore local colleges and ask current and former students. I don't think it's a good idea to get into debt.

Also, can I just say that who doesn’t have a mortgage these days! We don’t have any other debt but our mortgage is currently £380k, the interest we pay on the mortgage is £800 a month but that is well below what we would pay to rent in our area and we have capital repayment so it is going down. We do have £150k in investments which get a higher return than our ‘good’ mortgage rate. We also live in the city centre and are rather more frugal than our colleagues so this keeps me sleeping a little better at night!

If anything, as the OP doesn’t have a mortgage and we must be talking about £30-35k max for these extra two years of school fees… who does anyone know (other than our parent age!) with an outstanding mortgage that’s only that amount?!

Also, can I just put these school fees in to context… my nursery fees are £18k a year for a 1 year old! That’s with a 10% full time discount. £80 a day. That’s the going rate in our area for nurseries as there aren’t any state ones and even if there are they all start at 2! Yes the government has some funding put in place now but we will only get 15 hours for a year more than the previous provision due to when they are implementing this vote winning scheme (doesn’t really help me!!) so there are many many people who have been paying these type of fees for a few years.

Let’s be very clear here, you are NOT poor OP and it’s not that you cannot afford to pay these fees it you have more of an emotional and social dilemma!

I would say she's more introvert and would come across a bit jolly hockey sticks/bookish, even of her independent school friend circle she is regarded as such, though it isn't considered a bad thing as there are plenty of others. I think despite being good at sport, she would struggle to fit in and it might affect her ability to do achieve her potential.

In that case, given your dd’s personality, I would definitely take out the mortgage and explain all of the above to your dad.

The facts are that the OP has said that she's struggling to the extent of taking on a second job and selling her car to meet the school fees. That is her specific financial situation and that is all that is relevant to this discussion. We have no idea what her other outgoings are. Your specific financial situation is totally irrelevant.

For what its worth, I believe your daughter would do great at a local state school for secondary but that is easy for me to say as my kids go to good, state schools and are doing really well. However, obviously everyone's educational experiences in the UK are different, which is tragic but true. Your daughter's only known experience is that she goes to a private school, which she loves and where she is thriving.

In your shoes I would keep her there is, mainly because it seems to me that you do have funding options, beyond taking on extra work, in that you could re-mortgage. This is a great position to be in and solves your financial and living situation (assuming you can afford mortgage repayments).

I think the bigger issue here is dealing with all the strong feelings your Dad has about your choices? Why is your Dad so against borrowing money to send your daughter to private school.? Does he have issues with private education (feel like this is something you said was an issue earlier, apologies if mistaken). And why was your late mother so against being in debt?

Can you have a discussion with him where you acknowledge these views, but be frank and honest about YOUR own views. Just explain to him you don't want to disrupt your daughter's education and that you think remortgaging is the best and most reasonable action to take right now.

Good luck, you sound like such a caring great parent and daughter.

@saywh4tnow What a lovely reply - thank you.

Yes, my Mum had a tough childhood in the North East and was very much against going into any sort of debt, and my Dad is a retired state school teacher.

It's never really come up before as we've managed okay, day to day, but it does need addressing with him and won't be a bad thing.

Why does your dad get a say? Do you think your mum would approve, its a good use of her money after all. Only a small mortgage would be needed surely?

I would tell the current school your finances don't slow further to stay for 6th form. They may offer a bursary.

For Uni admissions:
experience relevant to the subject = positive points

posh extracurricular = neutral (and sometimes negative). For example, I've seen many cases of the "saving turtle on an island" on students' CVs... - experienced admission officers know it is a commercial activity. Parents paid the agencies to take the kids there. It will not add any weight to the application.

My friend did not want her daughter to mention her pony/horse riding on PS because she is concerned it may be seen negatively.

The other issue is that the local state schools may be short of specialist science and maths teachers able to teach the subjects she needs for a level. If your dad is retired from teaching he may not be aware of the current situation.

OP, if I were you, I would:

1. Apply for bursary

1. Do research on local six-forms as a backup. Some six-forms are "selective" which are less likely to have disruptive kids (those who are not interested in study chose different paths)

1. Check finance options and compare the figures - interest rates, repayment amount, lending terms etc. If it is affordable, do it. Consider it as an investment. Personally, I would do it to finance the 2 years unless there is a decent state six form option.

1. Talk to your daughter and be frank about the financial situation. Tell your dad at later stage once you have a plan

1. Quit the 2nd job when the plan is clear (loan or state) - financially, it will limit the university funding

@starfall1 Has good advice
But I probably wouldn't mention it to my father if I did up remortgaging. My own father very kindly gave me some money towards a house deposit many years ago and has never asked about my finances since other than to check I am doing OK.

Also it's a small thing but I would ask DD to get a Saturday job in sixth form to defray some of her own expenses in terms of extras like going out.