Struggling to pay for 6th form

[Charliesunnysky10]

DP & I both attended local state schools and had a tough time getting an education, so when our daughter wanted to go to an independent school for secondary (yrs 7-11), we made arrangements to set aside enough to fund the 5 years. My Dad wasn't too happy and said that the house was not to be mortgaged to pay fees (my mum sadly died 4 years earlier and left us enough to pay off the mortgage). However, there was regular overtime available at DP's work so we managed okay. We hadn't factored in the cost of living increase and I took a 2nd job for the evenings and weekends to ensure we could cover this last year (11).

However, daughter had said she would attend a state sixth form, but has in the last year become desperate to stay at the independent school (she wants to be a dentist and needs AAA which is regularly achieved at her current school's 6th form, but nowhere else locally). On the plus side, she got good mock results (8 x grade 9's and 3 x grade 8's) and when she had the post mock chat about sixth form with school they said they were very keen to keep her for A levels.

However, I'm honestly dead, working a 60 hour week, DP's overtime is sporadic and we can't meet the fees for another 2 years (I sold my car, and walk to both jobs). I've asked my dad again if we could remortgage but he is completely against this and says Mum mum didn't leave me the money for this. He said she has a better chance of getting into Uni going to a state school anyway. I just doubt she'd get the AAA - he says what will be will be.

I spoke with school and they said there is a bursary available and daughter's grades would stand her in good stead. However, reading the application form I'm asked why I can't liquidate assets and I think this is a weak reason. I wouldn't want to go against Mum's wishes but I do feel this is more Dad's take on the situation.

I really don't know what to do, and DP says it's not his parents or money so can't comment, but if it makes me feel any better, he says he's also torn between just applying for bursary and risk them thinking we are unreasonable, and remortgaging, but working like mad for another 2 years to pay it back ASAP.

What would you do?

I didn't say state school children couldn't get good grades. They do. I said if OPs child is as academic as she thinks she is, then it wouldn't matter where she goes to school.

This ^

I know first hand that state educated DC can get excellent A level results but this is a different situation. It is the change of school and sector at a critical point that creates the risk and that question mark is no reflection of the girl's ability. Also, only the OP knows the difference in teaching standards between her DD's school and the alternative state one. There is significant variation between individual schools in both sectors.

@BotanicalGreen Thank you. You also express it far better than i could.

There's also the added dimension of single gender education - she's at a girls school and while she mixes plenty with boys at home (brothers friends), on the school bus, in her p/t job, her sports clubs, and has a steady boyfriend, she learns only with girls. This wont continue after Y13, and I can only speak from my experience of my daughter, but it's helped a shy girl shine in particularly in STEM subjects.
It was a big part of why we, as a family chose the school at Y7 and why it might be an even bigger leap to state education if she doesnt continue a this one.

I would keep her on at her current school. I went to a relatively good state school (comp as labour heartland so no grammar) but that was 1997-2004 and schools were incredibly well funded (new labour era).

Even then, the 6th form provision was terrible. Up to 6th form it was very strict with very good teachers (my maths teacher left after 6 years to work in a Swiss boarding school and my chemistry teacher was a doctor). But at 6th form they become more ‘relaxed’ in their teaching styles which made everyone more disruptive and less likely to get involved and attend / gain full potential. Grades slipped because you were surrounded by a culture where the same work ethic wasn’t there. It’s hard to push against that and be the studious one!

My child is 1 and I am saving now to send them to private school. Ideally from 5 YO but the compromise is 11 YO depending on our financial circumstances nearer the time.

6th form are the most important years, regardless of anyone telling you otherwise you are always judged at university and employment by your classmates/colleagues on what school you went to. It shouldn’t be the case, but it is. But the state isn’t investing in our school or healthcare system enough, it’s a postcode lottery which makes any state ran facility very unfair. Unfortunately private is the only way at the moment.

Go for the Bursary, I don’t believe it takes into consideration your house or car. It’s more investment property / shares.

Just a thought, if you're unsuccessful with getting a bursary, I'd have a meeting and kindly ask for a discount at least, seeing as they were the ones who have done the hard-sell on your daughter without a second thought for your family finances. Or even if they won't give you a discount, ask them for a fee-freeze at least so that you don't have an annual increase to contend with.

Get anything agreed in writing!!!

@kaleidoscope123
"6th form are the most important years, regardless of anyone telling you otherwise you are always judged at university and employment by your classmates/colleagues on what school you went to."
🤣

Sorry its not your dad’s business anymore. I would remortgage and just not tell him, if you believe that private school is the best for your DD

@Bananabreadandstrawberries

It is the gov expectation that student will get loan for fees, that they will get a maintenance loan and that if this is reduced on account of parental income that the parents will make up the difference - about 5k at most.

The reason being that students aren’t considered to be independent until 25 unless they live away from home for 3yrs.

However, in some cases when loan is reduced due to parents income, the parents don’t weigh in to make up the difference. And in some cases parents overcompensate, not only paying the difference in maintenance loan but exceeding it and also covering fees - even though it is the cheapest loan their child will ever get and isn’t due to be paid back until they are earning a reasonable wage.

The result is polar opposites; some people really struggle through Uni and some life in unreality.

@CurlewKate …. A few years since I left (less than 10), but I know a few - captain of this or that - who were essentially head hunted. Not spectacular academically, got enough to get in the door and then did minimum while doing brilliantly with sport.

@Justkeeepswimming "@CurlewKate …. A few years since I left (less than 10), but I know a few - captain of this or that - who were essentially head hunted. Not spectacular academically, got enough to get in the door and then did minimum while doing brilliantly with sport."

Gosh. What completely outrageous illegal institution was this?

True, she knows her child and the local school better than the people commenting. But the cruxs of the matter is, they can't afford it. It would make more sense to not pay private fees and use those two years to save for university. Otherwise they'll pay for 6th form and then it's straight into university, where OP will be expected to pay to top you her daughter's student loan. Plus other costs. My friend is paying for her daughter's uni accommodation, it's £600pcm. That's on top of giving her money to top up the student loan. It's a lot of money to pay out each year.

Does your daughter know the impact that the fees are having on your health? I’m not saying that to emotionally blackmail her into moving schools but I would have been mortified if I knew my parents were struggling so much to afford them to the point where they were working all hours, selling the car, thinking of re-mortgaging, causing conflict with other family members etc.

I really do get the reluctance to move - I’ve posted earlier about my positive experience of moving from private to a state 6th form but I had no choice and a relatively resilient personality. I understand the argument that if she’s bright she’ll do well anywhere but also understand how massive the social disruption will be at 16.

That said - it’s not fair for you and DH to work yourself into ill health.

You mentioned she has a Saturday job, what happens to that money? Could it go in the general household pot? I wasn’t earning much at that age but if things were tight then that money could have at least helped towards food shopping etc. Is she pulling her weight around the house or are you doing the cooking/cleaning inbetween jobs? Again, not saying she needs to do everything but if she took charge of evening meals etc then that might give you a bit more down time (and the more household stuff you do the easier the transition at uni). My DH used to cook every night for the whole family as his parents worked late/had a long commute - meant his parents came home to dinner rather than having to then start cooking and his younger brothers weren’t waiting too late to eat. There’s plenty of meals you can cook that wouldn’t take away too much from study time and it’s a good life skill to be able to juggle studying alongside work/life anyway (she’ll have to do it once qualified - life doesn’t stop for professional exams etc!).

I guess it might be time to have a family chat about how to make the next two years work. That if she wants to stay you’ll support her but it’s going to be financially tight and how can you as a family manage that? Are there any expenses she can think of where you could cut down on, is there anything she can do to make life easier for you between jobs.

In the current situation, OP is struggling to afford the school fees but there may well be financial assistance from the school to make it affordable for the final two years so it is not quite as black and white as they can't afford it. Agreed that there will be some assistance required for university but even a generous top up is likely to be quite a bit less than sixth form fees at an independent school. Also, circumstances may well have changed a few years down the line. It is all very well thinking ahead to financially supporting OP's DD through a Dentistry degree but flawed logic if that leads to moving her and risking her not getting the grades to take up a Dentistry offer.

@CurlewKate

Russell Group. More than one.

A lot of people can be attracted to the Unis for the chance to be on teams, can lead to prof career.

Some were doing sports sci, some other sciences.

@Justkeeepswimming "A lot of people can be attracted to the Unis for the chance to be on teams, can lead to prof career."

Yes, of course. But that's not what you said.

How much is your house worth and what amount would you be looking to get from a re-mortgage?

You really need to have a look at the cost of uni - how much loan she’ll get and whether she could live on it, and whether you can top up. Dentists can’t typically work as much outside of uni.
Its all well and good that she wants to stay local but dentistry is SO competitive that it doesn’t work like that, she’ll have to go wherever she gets a place and that may well entail moving away

Hit send too soon. It may well be that financially she needs the support at uni more, in which case state sixth form may be the most reasonable option.
She’s a bright girl so involve her in these conversations.

OP just a final thought, it is probably worth letting the bursar know that your DD is keen on pursuing Dentistry if they don't already know and that you are concerned that if you move her to the local state school that she risks not getting the same level of support as she would with a Dentistry application in her current school. Also, more cynically, schools do like to cite their Oxbridge and Medicine/Dentistry destinations in their PR so it could help your case or at least not do any harm to it. Obviously there are other routes that are also extremely competitive for places but schools are aware that everyone generally knows that Oxbridge and med/dentistry are competitive, hence they are used as benchmarks.

The reality is that the level of support given with med/dentistry applications varies significantly by school. It's definitely not as simple as state/independent split. Some independents are pretty clueless with the detail of the process and some state schools are brilliant. It really depends on how clued up the individuals responsible for helping with applications are and how much practical experience they have of it, which of course is driven to an extent by the numbers who actually apply. It is not as simple as just putting them in touch with some dentist alumni - the application process changes from year to year. Before making your final decision it is worth speaking to both schools about the specifics of the support they give with this as for an aspiring medic/dentist this is a significant part of the value the school adds during sixth form. It can be navigated without support but it is much smoother with their school properly on board.

@CurlewKate

Hence the unis seek to attract sports men and women who can keep their teams at a high level, because this leads to more students being attracted and more money rolling in.

@kaleidoscope123 In my 16 years of knowing her, she is something of a chameleon and will adapt to be like everyone around her which has worked well at this school because the girls are academic and mostly very hard working - she'd be the odd one out in her friendship group if she didn't study and put the effort in. It doesn't suit everyone but it absolutely suited her. I’m concerned that if she went to another Sixth Form College, as well as being a fish out of water, if she doesn't see that same positive work ethic from the people she meets she won't push back and achieve.

The bursar mailed me back – the house and car ARE taken into consideration but he said they generally understand why they can’t be liquidated.
She doesn't earn a huge amount, but she pays for most of her own clothes and gifts for friends. She also helped with the laundry before she was doing her mocks which was a big help when I was doing the extra job.

@ReadingSoManyThreads Thank you. I feel quite annoyed at the school for having that talk with her without our knowledge. The teacher automatically assumed we could afford the additional two years when she already told them that she would probably not be continuing into Sixth form. They asked her what her aspirations were, and they said they knew her inside and out, that she’s very capable of achieving this and they knew how to help her get there. It was a very bold assertion, very emotive and I think a bit cynical, or at the very least thoughtless. The teaching side of things has been faultless, but this seemed like a clumsy bit of hard-sell.... and it worked on her. All that research into Sixth forms, applications and open evenings meant nothing.

@BotanicalGreen That is (again) a very good point. The current school know she would like to study dentistry because they cited it as reason for her to stay there over moving to a state college (because they had experience navigating the process), however I did think it tactless, and likely inaccurate – there are definitely state sixth forms out there that can do this, but we would need to check which ones have experience and something in place.

@Salacia Thanks. I’m really concerned if she knows everything, it will add unbearable guilt and pressure. She’s already putting a lot of pressure and high expectation on herself and the school arrange lots of extracurricular around this time, and remind us to keep up their social and hobbies to counteract the pressure. She’s aware because she helped complete the bursary application. I don’t want to add to the burden unnecessarily. I should point out that I enjoy both my jobs (office and hotel bar), and while the working week is long, it keeps me fit and active.

I didn’t put that it my original post though. I was feeling pretty hopeless at the time and the responses over the last few days have made me feel more positive and inspired to explore different options.

@Justkeeepswimming "Hence the unis seek to attract sports men and women who can keep their teams at a high level, because this leads to more students being attracted and more money rolling in."

Once again-that's not what you said. But hey ho.

@Charliesunnysky10 "I’m concerned that if she went to another Sixth Form College, as well as being a fish out of water, if she doesn't see that same positive work ethic from the people she meets she won't push back and achieve."

In my experience, she'd probably be better off in a school 6th form than in a 6th form college. The atmosphere will probably be nearer what she's used to and there will be fewer, if any, kids marking time til they reach 18.

My eldest dd was like that, adapted to her friendship group, and when we decided to send her private in year 7 (local state school was in special measures) that was one of the reasons. We knew she was fairly bright but definitely not an over achiever! In fact I thought she'd struggle with the entrance exam but decided not to coach her as I thought if she didn't get in on her own merits it would be stressful for her! Anyway she came top in 2 of the 3 sections, ended up with 2 offers for medicine (went to Cambridge) and is now a senior registrar. Good luck to your daughter ( I have a dd in year 11 atm).