Epsom College tragedy

[Bambala]

I was horrified to read the story about the headteacher and family dying this morning, this poor family and I can't stop thinking about how the children at school must feel learning about this tragedy. I am sure the staff there are being brilliant at supporting them. I remember hearing that my old headteacher had died after I left school and even then being really shocked and upset.

@SpookyBlackCat making it up for drama. What’s wrong with you? This is a tragedy. This is all fact. Read the news. Go look at company accounts.

Accounts reveal Mr Pattison's business had just £31 worth of reserves compared to £22,268 the year before. The last published accounts of his management consultancy, based in Reigate, Surrey, show its financial situation had taken a turn for the worse. Although the business had £38,048 in assets it faced tax and social security costs of £30,350 and bank loan an overdrafts of £7,535 leaving the company with barely any cash reserves.

Yes is hugely surprising indeed. That will make up part of the investigation. Because of his mental health issues were long standing and well known then how was he allowed a gun licence and how on a school property. There will be a big investigation into this.

Well yeah and that’s killing things.

1. The scope of ‘usefulness’ is incomparable
2. There are other means of controlling pests, including air rifles
3. The cases you’ve mentioned are both specific, narrow work-related contexts, not recreational use (as was the case here)
4. Guns can be considered on their own terms without continual whataboutery

I get the impression that your support for guns is emotional rather than practical (perhaps tied to tradition and culture)

Yesterday I was told (when I predicted murder-suicide) that I could take the GLORY of being right when it would eventually indeed be that. And now being told that I am making shit up for drama that is readily available in company accounts. Fine you all live in some cosy little world but I find this crime horrendous and we need to fully understand how this can happen to hopefully stop it happening again. I don’t take any glory out of this. We need to fully understand cases like this to try and stop them happening again.

Try killing a deer with an air rifle. No not emotional at all I’m very logically minded hence the fight back I’m doing here as it’s totally non sensical to ban guns and not say alcohol which also serves no purpose in our society beyond recreational use. These incidents are incredibly rare thankfully.

Oaktree55 you've a seriously misplaced confidence in the licensing authorities. The department down in Plymouth has been described as 'shambolic' (this was accepted by the head of the department. Guidance wasn't followed, there was an ignorance of what the guidance even meant. What you claim to happen is an idealized version but not the reality. Read the inquest as it goes along to see just how inadequate gun licensing is, or was there. No reason to believe the players are any more competent elsewhere. Basically, guns are winged through with minimal scrutiny and devastating loss of life is the result.

Zero insight shown here.

A man capable of killing his entire family might be someone his wife tries to avoid upsetting. Although either way, this was not her responsibility.

I thought you were not going to bother discussing with people who think gun possession creates unnecessary risk.

You are filling the entire thread with support for guns.

It’s still incredibly rare and in the main scrutiny is intense, I don’t know about Plymouth perhaps mistakes were made. If your aim is to save random loss of life there are many more areas to focus on than gun ownership.

Yes is rather odd that someone can come on here after what just happened and keep going on defending guns. I mean say it once. Then leave it. We disagree.

You’re not being logical and dispassionate, you have an agenda and a dogmatic pro-gun position. You are not interested in considering alternatives for specific use cases nor for licensing models. Fine, but own it.

And I used to work with guns so am well aware of what they are used for.

I don't see how access to a firearm is the reason he became a family annihilator.

For late at night, in the family home, he could have turned to a knife as, sadly, so many have before.

The availability of a weapon influenced only his choice of method, not his course of action.

I wish people would not use the expression “family annihilator”. It’s so glib and cold. The mother and child lost their lives in horrendous circumstances. A little bit of sensitivity wouldn’t go amiss.

It's easier with a gun as you can shoot from a distance whereas if someone was fighting you off or hiding behind a door it would be harder to do it with knife. Oscar Pistorius shot through a door and killed Reeva Steenkamp

He was an inadequate man, husband and father. No further explanation needed.

Oaktree55 you say you don't know about Plymouth. Perhaps you should read the reports then. It's shocking how few checks are made even when there are glaring flags. Perhaps it will lead to a radical overhaul of licensing. Here's hoping.

Guns help but it’s only part of the story.

According to some research in Australia - it was found that 60% of men who killed their partners had been violent previously.

I suspect that the report he made to police in 2016 of her hitting him was either a. The other way round or b. Reactive violence. It’s a common tactic. It also deters victims from reporting to the police.

It’s not the reason, it just makes it far, far easier to enact, particularly while emotions are running high.

Also more impossible to escape from than, say, someone chasing after you with a knife.

We don't know whether he would have needed to be at a distance

Precisely.

Winter isn’t saying that. It’s just a lot easier and quicker with a gun than, say, a knife. Guns don’t make somebody kill their family but on the slur of the moment they make it a lot easier. I don’t see how anyone can dispute that.

Well yes true. But don’t you think it important these incidents are studied? For future?

These incidents will be studied by professionals- people who have access to information. What we are doing here isn't studying it. It's speculation. We now know he was the aggressor. We won't know what triggered his behaviour or what previous signs there had been until the inquest.

Outside that then we're just guessing.

It’s unseemly for amateurs to “study” such subjects on an Internet forum. I’m sure there are knowledgeable professionals who do so, of course. That’s different from the oh so knowledgeable amateurs.🙄

I think we can all see that this man was inadequate- however, the common risks to other incidents are likely to domestic abuse, perceived status disparity, depression, and gun ownership: these are factors in this kind of crime.

It is difficult to comprehend emotionally but a case review will show common factors to similar crimes: perhaps also there should be further discussion about domestic abuse. This is something that happens to nice families and is not just something faced by women with no means.

'it's unseemly for women to discuss male violence.'