Music practice - if your kids do it, how do you get them to do it, if they don't, why don't you make them?

[tortoiseSHELL]

As a piano teacher I am CONSTANLY amazed at the money parents pay for piano lessons, and then don't make their children practise - thus wasting the money imo! Can't think why this is. I always thought it must be impossible to actually get them to practise, but now ds1 is doing violin and piano, I realise it isn't, you just make them do it.

So - if your children learn instruments, how much practice do you insist that they do each day, what is your method of achieving this, and if they don't practise, why don't you make them? And do you mind wasting all that money on lessons?

Thank you! This is to help me as a piano teacher, not as a parent, as atm ds1 does his practice with no problem, I need schemes for my pupils' parents! I have suggested sticker charts, rewards charts, having a set time each day, doing 5 mins 3 times a day, doing 15mins in one go...am out of ideas!

Really, learning music is, for me, as much part of the key curriculum as learning to read or write. And I always make them read/learn spellings and tables. So why wouldn't I make them do their piano/recorder practice?

I quite frequently don?t understand how other people think so I would be grateful if someone could explain the collective MN brain.
Why do you think that school homework for Junior kids is evil but practice (i.e. music homework) is essential?

I don't think junior prep is evil

I do think that if your kids choose an instrument then there is absolulty no point in learning if your kids will not put the time in and if you have to bribe then so be it!

You do not have to be musical - if you sit with your child you canlearn as they do.

My dd (8) is better than me already but I canmke sure she is doing her scales etc and I can read what the teahcer has written in her book

Kids finish school at 330\4pm. They have tons of time in which to find 20 mins to practice!

gawkygirl - I think that is the way lots of parents think. Unfortunately, whilst we all want our kids to 'enjoy their childhood' if they don't do music practice then they might as well not have the lessons as they won't progress, and it will just become a source of stress to them and a financial drain for their parents.

It must be nut driving TS, having these kids turn up week after week with no progress due to not practising....

can I ask a quick cheeky question? don't know if you saw my post a bit further down about my dad, who is a brilliant pianist....i learned as an adult and got to grade 5 before ds came along and it all went a bit to pot! i do want ds to do some musical instrument or other, but he's currently being assessed (seeing Ed Psych next week) for possible dyspraxia. He doesn't read yet, or write or draw well at all....is it too early by a long way? Would Piano be a good instrument for him or not at all? What age is a good age to start him on something musical?

I'm sorry for the hijack, just wanted to pick your brains while you're about

honoria - interesting question! What age is he?

In many ways I think being a bit unco-ordinated is a good thing for the piano - obviously you need to be able to control your hands, but it can be difficult if the hands work 'too well' together - this is quite hard to explain - I've always been a bit unco-ordinated, but never had a problem with my right hand wanting to copy my left hand etc. I think sometimes the people who find it most difficult are the people who are good at things like 'bowling in cricket' - where the whole body is involved in one movement, whereas in something like piano you need your hands to work independently - and in organ you need hands AND feet to be independent of each other - and somehow, having too much co-ordination can hinder this.

What I would suggest is, if you want him to do piano, get a piano book - I like 'Me and My Piano' by Fanny Waterman, Marion Harewood and do a bit with him - anyone can do it, as the book explains it as you go along - and just see how you go with it. I think that is a much better approach than finding a teacher, discovering he doesn't like it, and 'giving up' - this way 'giving up' doesn't come into it - just do a bit casually and see if he likes it.

What are his numbers like? He needs to be able to number his fingers 1-5 on each hand (thumb is 1) and really needs to know A-G letters. Give it a go and see how he gets on!

Ds1's school do an 'instrument taster session' each year, where the children can have a go at different instruments - that might be worth doing as well.

ds2 has music lessons because he likes them - for someone who doesn't really talk and never seems like he's listening, he's picking it up very well!

ds1 tried because he wanted to, decided he didn't like it and stopped. We said give it a go if you want to, if you don't like it never mind BUT you if you say you don't want any more, you cannot change your mind back again, so be very sure what you want(words to that effect anyway).

So to answer q -

yes, one does. I don't 'get' him to do it, he wants to do it. And the one that doesn't, well, I don't make him because what on earth would be the point.

I don't think you should force a child to learn an instrument if their heart's not in it. Music should be a passion not a chore.

oh thankyou so much TS. He's five.

I hadn't thought of getting a book and doing it just between us; what a good idea.

Funnily enough he MAY be ok with the independent hands thing; I've particularly noticed that when he plays about on the piano, his hands go from the middle, out in different directions at the same time, do you see what I mean? So it may be something he's ok with.

i will definitely get the book you recommend, thank you for that. I'll give it a go.

oh and meant to say, yes he's ok with numbers and he did learn to play a few notes of the Star Wars theme and remembered what they were...so all in all you've given me the confidence to give it a go. thanks!

m2pw - I totally agree! But supposing you were making your ds1 carry on - what would motivate him to practise (this is the situation with some of my pupils).

Honoria - the moving out from the middle is great - that is how the books all begin - get him to put thumbs on middle C, and then count outwards 1-2-3-4-5 so that the right hand is ended on a G on the little finger, left hand little finger on an F. Then get him to practise playing 1-2-3-4-5, make sure it's one finger to one note. Then he can start making up tunes with those 9 notes.

Well, Tortoiseshell - I truly can't get my head around the idea of a parent forcing an unwilling child to continue to learn an instrument that the child has no interest in. If the parent is that keen - have them learn the bloody thing!

But if I was to take leave of my senses and bully my son into continuing a pastime of my choosing that made him unhappy, I would probably force him to do so by threatening to take away his beloved hotwheels collection.

(I feel very strongly that parents should not try to live through their children - can you tell?! )

Thanks again TS

This thread has been so interesting, and has made me re-examine my own motives, which is no bad thing. I persuaded ds to go to a general Saturday morning music workshop when he was 5 because he was constantly playing on his toy keyboard and playing stuff by ear, and I just wanted to give him a chance to learn a bit really. The class was brilliant, and incorporated letting the children listen to older ones (teenagers, mostly) play various instruments. Ds heard someone play violin and was adamant that this was what he wanted, too, so he started the next year and still loves it, 6 years later, even though he's had some non-ideal teachers in that time. He then decided he really wanted to learn piano, too.

Dd never showed any real sign of being particularly musical, but was chosen to do cello at school and again loves it, although she's very hard on herself.

For me, the enormous pleasure comes from hearing beautiful music filling the house and knowing that it is being made by my own child- I have never quite got over my sense of awe at that I prefer to think that I am facilitating something that they really want to do, though, rather than living out my own (non-existent) dreams of being a musician!

I keep coming back and rereading bits of this thread and it's made me have another think about DS2.

He's attended his second ever strings concert tonight and it was fab. The teachers are so enthusiastic, and I've been reminded just how good DS2's teacher is in particular.

He's still in the first ensemble, but there are five in total, and his schoolfriend (also 10) is already in the top ensemble, the rest are virtually all teenagers, including another friend who, in DS1's words, was awesome. (high praise indeed - DS1 has no interest in music at all).

DS2 may be moving up to the second group next week, and we've had another chat about practising more often, and also about how much effort his fab teacher puts in at school, and the teachers in general.

He will still have strops - it's his temperament, and he has so many other things to do, but with DS3 beginning Sax this week, I may try short-term rewards to see if we can't get into some sort of routine with them both.

Don't think I ever made it clear that both Headteacher and the fab peripatetic music teacher agreed that they were happy for him to continue with only practising once or twice a week, rather than him dropping it completely.

Sorry if this repeats what others have said as pushed for time but my 2p worth:

I pay for my children to have instrumental lessons because I think it's something they can enjoy and because I believe it is good for their intellectual development.

I don't believe in making them practise if they don't want to. I encourage them to practise. Occasionally I am more than encouraging if they have an exam coming up for example. I never want them to feel they must practise because this will put them off and be counter-productive.

My dd learns piano and clarinet. She usually practises the piano every day totally voluntarily. Sometimes, if she is not enjoying the music, she practises less and hopefully the teacher picks up on this and moves onto music she enjoys more. She hardly practises the clarinet at all. She took up lessons because the piano teacher recommended she learn a second instrument. I should encourage her to play it more but she is very busy at the moment as she's just started secondary school with oodles of homework so I'm not pushing her at the moment. Maybe we will review whether or not she has lessons at the end of year 7.

My ds plays trumpet. I tell him when I want him to practise. Usually 2 or 3 times a week. He rarely practises voluntarily but seems to enjoy it when I've asked him to, especially if I accompany him on the piano. He is talented at the trumpet, makes a lovely sound and I am very worried if I push him too hard he will just say he wants to give it up as he does grumble sometimes and doesn't like the fact he has to go to orchestra at school. If I keep it more low-key it can be something he enjoys occasionally and he may develop more keen-ness as his playing progresss.

I would NEVER make my child practise a set amount of time every day unless they wanted to.

I am a music teacher by the way so I have seen it from the other side of the music-stand too

I have some pupils who will pratice - they are generally secondary school level, and those younger who do very little. If a child wants to learn they will do the pratice - if it is the parents idea that they take on music then it can be a frustrating time and ultimately a waste of money.

I do insist that they bring a note-book with them each lesson so I can write out what pratice I want done for the week, I break it down into days and what lines of what piece and how many times etc, so when they play - badly the following week I can see what has/nt been done.

I do think it has to be enjoyable for the child though and that is what I aim for.

There is research that shows (can't remember exact details of this because belongs to the dim, distant past when I did a music education MA - needless to say before childbearing) that children whose parents force them to practise are the most likely to give up as soon as they leave home. Those children and young people who initiate their own practise are the ones most likely to carry on playing an instrument into adulthood.
I think there's a lot to be said for the culture of music making in the family. If a kid sees mum and dad reading, she is more likely to read, and the same goes for playing an instrument. I have had pupils whose parents have learned alongside them and this can work really well, especially when kid has to show mum how to do it properly!
Egg timers can work - maybe the counting down of time is more bearable than counting up to 15 minutes or so.
If playing an instrument with mates or in the family isn't happening then practise is very hard to encourage - it just isn't so much fun! There should be opportunities for even beginners to play in a group and learn all kinds of pieces - jazzy, pop, classical etc.

My DD has actually done some flute practice this week

I think its partly because she's got a new teacher who gave her a specific thing to work on (alternating D and E). She said this was really hard at first so I told her to just do it twice the first day and build up.
Once she'd got the flute out she was then quite keen to play some of the simpler tunes in the book too.

The other thing was... don't laugh ... she wanted me to play along with her. On the recorder. Only the beginner tunes with just BAG cos thats all I can do at the moment though it came back to me fairly soon how to squeak out a few more notes. There certainly was an element of her teaching silly old mum...my grade 1 violin was so long ago that I've forgotten how to read music

I shall have to get myself a recorder primer!

i don't make them practise (4, 7 years), but they enjoy messing around on the keyboard at least once a day.

there's nothing worse than being a pushy parent and having a reluctant child to teach. my eldest goes to gran who has a full on baby grand piano and giives the eldest a lesson each week. at the moment she loves it and is a bit of a competition between her and her cousin who is a bit older.

her keyboard is away for repair and she has told me folornly that her cousin has two keyboards (ie. why have we only got one!). that's commitment!!

surely, it has to be what the child wants to do.

Perhaps there's a difference according to the age of the children. My 3 were all 'old' beginners - between 10 and 12 - and they knew from the off that practice was an integral part of the deal. It just wasn't an issue. They could also appreciate the fact that the more you practise the quicker you progress. So it's very different from trying to get a 5 or a 7 year old to practice. And starting 'late' hasn't held them back at all.

Oh dear Tortoiseshell, you wouldn't like me at all, I never make my DD practice (she is 8).

She asked to learn the piano when she was 6 and I was initially a little bit skeptical as to whether it was a good idea as she has dyspraxia & very bendy fingers with little muscle tone. I found a fantastic teacher who is brilliant with her and has told me not to worry about making her practice as she felt she will get to the point where she wants to.

She is just starting to do some occasionally. I am more than happy to keep paying for lessons as she is always really enthusastic about going and I feel it has helped her writing - she used to struggle knowing how much pressure to exert when writing. I think having an auditory feedback from the piano in response to pressure has helped. As has trying to get both hands work together.

wow - teapot, what a nice post!

sounds like your dd loves it - brilliant.