Music practice - if your kids do it, how do you get them to do it, if they don't, why don't you make them?

[tortoiseSHELL]

As a piano teacher I am CONSTANLY amazed at the money parents pay for piano lessons, and then don't make their children practise - thus wasting the money imo! Can't think why this is. I always thought it must be impossible to actually get them to practise, but now ds1 is doing violin and piano, I realise it isn't, you just make them do it.

So - if your children learn instruments, how much practice do you insist that they do each day, what is your method of achieving this, and if they don't practise, why don't you make them? And do you mind wasting all that money on lessons?

Thank you! This is to help me as a piano teacher, not as a parent, as atm ds1 does his practice with no problem, I need schemes for my pupils' parents! I have suggested sticker charts, rewards charts, having a set time each day, doing 5 mins 3 times a day, doing 15mins in one go...am out of ideas!

pointydog, I do think they have musical ability from birth, but I don't necessarily think it shows itself till later, as it can be hampered by lack of technique - so I don't think the child that gets on quickest on the instrument will necessarily be the most 'deeply musical'. But I do think it's innate.

my dd used to be quite good at practicing,now she's crap and I've given up pestering,she plays flute so not as demanding as piano.
she does practice when the pressure's on for recital or exam but little else.

She's 15 and on gr 7,which to me is effing amazing considering the lack of practice she does.

tortoiseshell, I think I am like your parents - usually too disorganised to fill in practise sheets. But I have one dc who practises anyway - 2 instruments, approx 10 mins each per day, often less, occassionally more (this is less than the teachers say he should do at his level, but they don't actually know he does so little as he makes good progress and I think if I made him do more he'd stop enjoying it). The other dc has to be coerced, cajoled and stood over to get anything done, I consider I've done well to get 10 mins 4xper week there. I've put up with it thus far as otherwise it seems rather unfair that one gets two and the other none (both of them want to play, and both know they can give up with a terms notice).

DD1 tends to practice her violinthree or four times a week - but usually for 30-45 minutes at a time. I would like her to do some everyday but realistically she doesn't have time - but the days she doesn't practise are usually the days she has her lesson or school orchestra club or the strings orchestra practice, so she is actually playing on those days any way.
DD2 would practice her cello everyday if we asked herbut she has only been playing for a year and three times a week is fine says her teacher.
I don't really have to nag them but I do need to remind them because they would just not think of it otherwise, but they are perfectly happy to do it when reminded.

I do have to remind ds2, but not nag.

I think the piano is easier for practice, because you don't have to "get it out" and tune it, and so on. I know it doesn't take long to get a violin/flute/oboe ready for action, but when I was a child it always seems a big effort compared to just sitting down at the piano.

I agree too with Tamum and others about choosing the instrument. DS2 was desperate to have piano lessons - he'd done a little with me at home, but we then spent 12 months on waiting lists/looking around for a teacher. So by the time he started he was very keen.

We also go by the rule of little and often. DS2 still usually practises twice a day, though usually just 5-10 mins before school, 10-30 mins after school (depending on him). For him this definitely works better than doing two or three longer sessions each week.

dd (7) has started violin lessons. She has 15 mins between getting dressed and going to school to do her practice. She gets a sticker for each practice atm to help her get in the habit of practicing each day. 7 stickers = tiny reward. After 49 stickers she knows thats the end of the reward system. We are only two weeks into this so I can't say how effective it will be long term.

We have always insisted that they practise - it's part of the deal. If they are young and/or total beginners, we say 15 minutes at least 5 days a week, any more is up to them. With my older two, they progressed to 30 mins 5 times a week up to about grade 4-5, then 45 mins-1 hour a session after that. They have to keep this routine up in holidays too (except when we're actually away), but in fact I've noticed they tend to practise more, because they have more time and don't have homework etc and they just seem to want to.

Homework and practise must be done before any 'treat' activities in the evening, for example watching TV, going on the computer, going to youth clubs etc.

If I found that mine really weren't practising and it was a struggle to motivate them, they would stop having lessons. Simple as that. Perhaps it helps that the impetus has come from them - my husband and I are not musical at all and for a long time it never crossed our minds that ours should learn an instrument. So it's come as something of a shock to find they're all very musical. But that does mean they want to learn and they mostly enjoy it, so it's not something we've 'forced' them into.

I agree with those who've said that the children must want to learn, that they must want to learn that particular instrument (not the one mum wants them to learn), and that perhaps parents and children need guidance on how to structure the practise - so they know that just getting the instrument out and rushing through a couple of pieces as quickly as they can isn't really practise!

tortoiseshell, you're right about how much more they enjoy it when they progress and can play more things, or more difficult things. But they have to put in the work first... One of my children wasn't keen on practising scales, until he realised that for jazz improvisation (which he loves) scales really help. So now he does lots of scales and actually enjoys them!

Here is how we do it

I hve four kids all of whom play 2 instruments. apart form ds1 who plays 3 to a high level and dd who plays 3.

When they werelittle the arguements were insane.

so we paid them

10p per practice and if they did 5 per week then we gave them a pound!!!

This went on for a couple of years and now they practice within the school system and it is justpart or their routine.

hth

Love your name Beety!!!

Thanks everyone so much for your thoughts - I think I'm going to try and get a sticker chart for each pupil, and actually issue them with their own sticker chart to fill in - will even give them the stickers which I can then reward with a big sticker, perhaps leading to a chocolate treat once a month? Does that sound a good plan? Perhaps piano teacher's chocolate will be more of an incentive than ordinary parents' chocolate?

Thanks again!

The problem with rewards is that they actually decrease a child's motivation to do the task itself, and make them view the task as more unpleasant than they previously believed it to be

rewards can work in the short term but in the long term they decrease your child's interest in the subject you are bribing them to take part in.

The problem is franny that it isn't my children - it's the children I teach - my ds1 DOES practise without any stickers etc. I just wonder whether a visible record of practice might spur them on a bit. Otherwise I may have to kill myself during one of their lessons as we go over the same bit AGAIN and I pray that they will remember the F# BUT NO - THEY FORGET FOR THE 10th WEEK RUNNING!

DD is 6.5y and plays the violin and harp, as well as taking the dreaded school Y2 recorder lessons. I explained practice was non-negotiable before she even started her first instrument and reminded her about that before she took up her second. The amount she does per day varies, but never less than 10 mins per day per instrument and she usually takes about 30 mins to do both. I do sit with her, as much because she likes the company as anything...I think DD is naturally pliant (for now) so it's never been an issue. She can also tell when she is making progress with her pieces which helps.

I don't get involved with the recorder at all.

No, I understand your problem

however studies show that sticker charts etc actually demotivate children and turn them off from the task you are rewarding

so I wouldn't encourage that method, personally

Maybe this is hopelessly idealistic but I would hope that if the children enjoyed the lessons and the instrument and found it enjoyable that they would want to practise? If they didn't, I would be wondering why they were doing it. It seems kind of pointless.

But I do see you are stuck if the parents keep bringing them despite them not wanting to practise

is it very disheartening for you?

Franny, I know you feel strongly about rewards, and I know there are studies that back this up, but I think they can be a very powerful tool to get children over humps. Beety's children would be good examples of this

I was made to practise as a child.

Was told I'd regret it if I didn't finish Grade 8 in both instruments. I loved music but the having to practise did take out a lot of the pleasure in it for me. IN fact, I stopped playing for years because of it!

What finally changed was when I joined an orchestra (oboe) and started playing duets on the piano (so around 10/11). Suddenly, it made sense to me - that if I practised and played well, I could really join in with other people.

So I reckon - you need to point out the benefits. I think when they are really little (like under 8/9), they shouldn't be forced to practise. But once they hit 8/9, they should be old enough to understand that if they practise they'll get better and be able to join wind band or whatever.

If they don't want to practise and get no pleasure out of it, then I reckon it's not worth them doing it.

it must be frustrating if you are the teacher Tortoise!

I'm not sure there's much you can do as Franny says. I guess the parents keep dragging the children there in hope that they will develop a love for it and start wanting to practise. You never know!

Just skimmed this. [hello f-i-s, I am ex sibdoms. We "Met" a few months ago over absent partners and I haven't really seen you around since. How are you? Waves frenetically.]
I can't be doing with targets or stickers or owt like that. The reward is getting a bit better at the instrument. That should be enough, theoretically.
Having said that, I really have to hover over my dd 1, 8, and kind of chip in, to ensure she practises well. She just isn't confident enough yet to practise on her own. But I think violin is very difficult at the beginning. She only manages about 3 practices a week, and I would love her to do more, but she does recorder too and other things, so at the moment that's all we can do. But she is making good progress, and more importantly, she loves it. I don't want to force her. It should be fun. If I felt she didn't want to do it I would stop the lessons. In fact I am always asking her if she wants to stop, to the extent that she has asked me to stop asking her.

I know this would only work with some children, and you may well already do this, but to be honest the thing that worked best for ds was to have a chart from the teacher where he had to fill in how much he had practised each day. Just the thought of the teacher seeing it with only 2 days filled in was enough to motivate him.

Roisin, completely agree about how much easier it is to practice when you don't have to set the instrument up. I also felt if I had learnt guitar or piano instead of clarinet life would have been so much easier

dd is almost 10 and has played piano for 2 years. She is not esp talented but loves it. She practises for about 15 mins every morning before school. I find its the best time, when she is fresh. She is usually happy to practise but often needs encouragement. She's just come in the room actually and I asked her! She said 1. because piano is her favourite instrument and she loves the sound it makes. 2. Because she wants to please Miss X (piano teacher) 3. Because she 'wants to get really good' 4. Because its expensive and if she didn't practise, it would be a waste of money.

There you go - straight from the horse's mouth

oh oxo. Do you think you could come and train my children? How wonderful your dd sounds!

We have a family rule: if you want to learn the instrument then you put in a minimum of 10 minutes every day. If the commitment isn't shown then the lessons will be cancelled and instruments sold. Practise if usually in the morning before school - if that slot has been missed for some reason then it has to be made up in the evening. Seems to work for mine as they love their music but occasionally there is resistance and just occasionally I let it slip simply because they are not in a recptive frame of mind.

Hmm, things are fine-ish thank you Foxy.
How about you?

foxinsocks, I just wish she was so lovely about her school homework