Sick and tired of this... [sad]

[DemiLee33]

Hello everyone and thanks for listening.

I am at breaking point with my son's secondary school teachers/policies.

For I.E for ridiculous, unwarranted punishments.
Detentions for not having a pen or a shirt untucked.
Most good students in secondary schools are in I.e at least once within their first 2 years of starting. Most students have had at least 10 detentions by the time they have completed year 8.

Once again I have been in meetings, lodged complaints, cried on the phone to them. My son has cried and is so low in mood now because he feels beaten down by them. I have had 2 teachers admit to me that a lot of 'normal' 'good' kids are in i.e or on report.

Their policies are awful! Nationwide, secondary schools are so extreme with their punishments for such ridiculous, unwarranted reasons. Some schools have even started saturday morning detentions!!
I am so tired of not having my voice heard. Anyone else feeling like this? I have started up a fb group to vent about this and it may take off it may not. I have emailed relevant organisations and lodged complaints but these schools are a law unto themselves.

Sorry for moaning
xx

Likewise in school. Sensible smart comfortable clothes are appropriate, & often a uniform is the simplest way to ensure that's what is being worn

DD is required to wear black sports legging things for PE bought from the school uniform suppliers website. DD is 6ft tall and they come to just past her knees. So I bought her some that fit, from Fabletics. She has been told that leggings are not allowed, because some are see-through. Despite, the school PE uniform BEING leggings. AND the leggings she has NOT being see-through

It's all just a nonsense

Gosh, that would be 5 minutes at most. Ooooh, shocking. Could easily be solved too by a pot of pencils on the desk.

5 mins every lesson is a waste of time. Over a day that's 25 minutes of learning time lost.

A pot of pens provided by who? Budgets in schools are being slashed all the time. I won't buy pens for students anymore out of my own money. I shouldn't have to.

Hebdenbridge
It's a mindset that comes up almost everywhere in state education.

Somewhere like my school it doesn't happen that often, tiny minority. We know our policies are good and fair and we make reasonable adjustments. Senior leaders will back staff in following policy.

Other places I've worked 2/3 of parents/students had that attitude. It made teaching almost impossible at times and behaviour around school was poor. Senior leaders ended up being weak and not challenging it because it was a never ending stream of parents kicking off. Any perfectly reasonable request was met with negotiation, arguments etc, waiting 20 mins to teach some days wasnt unheard of because the second anyone used the behaviojr policy all hell would break out because someone's parent has already told them they don't have to do detention. Students would tell us their parents would threaten us if we tried to keep them in at break because 'humab rights'. Uniform was whatever the parents felt like buying because their DC wanted to look cool and they felt rules didn't apply to their child. Verbal abuse towards staff was common and parents would routinely blame staff for it because we need to understand that DC doesn't respond well to being told to put their phone away and stop filming the person they're bullying. I was assaulted by a student for telling them to sit down and stop verbally abusing a vulnerable student, parent came in and blamed me. Apparently I should have known their DC doesn't like being given instructions.

That's the further extreme end of the wedge, but in the middle ground you get 'I don't see why my DC was given a break detention... oh yes they were talking but they were just asking a question... I know you say it's an exam but they were stuck and only asking their friend a question so you can't give them a detention for trying to do their work' / 'I don't consent to a uniform detention. It doesn't make a difference if they're wearing a hoody. It's not defiance. They just refused to allow you to steal their private property.' In other words 'my opinion on a rule is what decides if my child has to follow It'

I've never known anyone to not have a pen

Haven’t you? Oh, well that must mean that it never happens, because it hasn’t, in your exceptionally limited experience.

I teach a kid who never has a pen. We don’t give detentions for this. They have now taken to not even bother bringing a school bag. They abandon their book on their desk at the end of the lesson, knowing that I’ll look after it for them because I care more about it than they do.

It’s teaching them that they don’t need to give a shit about taking responsibility for stuff because someone else will always pick up after them at no cost to themselves.

You'd just be replacing untucked shirts/peanut ties for short shorts/midriff showing t shirts/ stiletto heels/ risqué slogans or whatever else school decides isn't reasonable.

Except that that doesn't happen in schools without uniforms. Children discover pretty quickly that stilettos are bloody uncomfortable, and short shorts and bare midriffs are bloody cold. More materially, most non-uniform schools cover this by having policies that say things like no bare midriffs, maximum heel heights, shorts at a defined minimum length, shirts without slogans etc - and, rather than punish children who push the boundaries, they simply hand out really frumpy shirts, tracksuit trousers,and plimsolls for them to to change into.

rather than punish children who push the boundaries, they simply hand out really frumpy shirts, tracksuit trousers,and plimsolls for them to to change into.

Right, because making a fashion-conscious crop-top-wearing-teen wear a frumpy outfit isn’t a punishment in the slightest
FFS, most would prefer a detention.

You just know that the school that switched detentions for frumpy clothes would be slated on MN for ‘public humiliation’.

I’ve already seen parents moan about kids who’ve been given regulation school shoes to wear for turning up in trainers because it’s not perfectly fitted to their precious child’s foot.

Whatever schools do in this country, they will always, always, always be in the wrong somehow.

Whatever schools do in this country, they will always, always, always be in the wrong somehow
I totally agree.

Basic sweatshirt given out to student who decided to ignore more rules they didn't like = frothing parent claiming people are body shaming their child, have humiliated them in front of their peers, claiming their child is now full of anxiety at going to school because they are ashamed of their body and it's all the fault of teachers who dared to tell their darling to follow the dress code.

Isatis
Like I said, I've worked in a non uniform school overseas. It worked brilliantly because the parents and students had a fundamentally different attitude to education.
I've got friends who've worked in the states and they've had no shorts, no midriffs, no shoulders out rules for boys and girls. They've told me there's almost always some drama from some students over their need to wear non dress code items.
Another friend taught at a private UK school with no uniform. Attitude to schooling is impeccable. The dress code is a similar standard of smartness to a uniform. Everyone follows it because they have the right attitude to school and aren't the sort of kids/parents who are going to throw thousands at an education to argue over their child's right to wear ripped jeans and a gym top.

In theory I wouldn't mind a dress code instead of a uniform, if I actually thought it wouldn't cause more issues than it's worth in the majority of british schools.

To the nes who asked if it is a MAT school

Yes, he is is a MAT school.
I cannot get him to another school due to limitations on my mobility but eventually I could try however if I took him out then he would wait a long long time for another school entry. Years ago my daughter waited 5 months to be allocated another school and she was being endlessly bullied her previous.

All schools here now, (secondary) are MAT or merging. It is crazy.

The same happens here too regarding the blazers in hot weather.
Making them sit like that in 25 degree plus heat is disgusting but still they keep doing it.

and as for all the other ridiculous rules... I am shocked at some of them.

This is why I have got to this point. Most parents who are complaining and good, reasonable, respectful and understanding parents and they are banging their heads agaianst a wall.

I can't remember who said it but the person who said how these teachers wouldn't doing well working mainly with other adults had a real point. Of course teachers care and want to help and educate. It is some teacher's passion but for a great few, it really isn't. They are lost in the system and have become almost brainwashed.
They too have a mortgage or rent to pay just like the parents who can't home school because they have to go to full time work to pay their mortgage and rent.

Generic work in i.e really annoys me too. If yu are going to put a child in i,e then let let do their work that needs doing or their homework.
when in detentions ... don't let them sleep... make them work and be useful
Any yes, even if I haven't entirely agreed why he may be in i,e ir detention, at least let him do something useful and positive. BUT...

If my child was ever ill off school... the school then send out waste of paper to inform you the lessons missed and then my child falls behind.
SO.... THE SCHOOL IS THEN PUNISHING MY CHILD FOR ACTUALLY BEING ILL!!!

The whole system is exhausting and deluded.
So to anyone who disagreed with my OP, you carry n disagreeing because there are plenty MORE who rightfully, disagree!

Smile everyone... it's Monday tomorrow!!

If my child was ever ill off school... the school then send out waste of paper to inform you the lessons missed and then my child falls behind.
SO.... THE SCHOOL IS THEN PUNISHING MY CHILD FOR ACTUALLY BEING ILL!!!

The school sent home work that your child missed and you are annoyed? Give me strength.

Generic work in detention is fine. We deliberately don't allow students to do homework. It's not homework club, it's detention.

Depending on the circumstances and timing of a detention, we either have a discussion about the behaviour and how they ended up there, how to avoid it in future or for after schools there'll be time to do some generic skills work for the subject (which is still beneficial) or if it is for a missed homework then they can do that. Students aren't sitting in a detention with me doing homework for other subjects.

And for what it's worth I don't think I've given an after school detention to anyone in my classes in months so I'm not saying this as a trigger happy teacher.

Equally, sending missed work home is more than what many schools do. It's not punishing anyone for being ill. It's giving them an opportunity to not get behind. Personally the school is doing too much sending home lessons though. At mine it's up to the students to catch up what they've missed (be it illness or enrichment or trips) and if they don't then it's on them, but we don't get into parental complaints if they do badly on a test/claim they can't do homework 2 weeks later having not caught up. I'm always happy to help students catch up, but most are happy to copy main notes from a friend.

No system is perfect. I've had parents contact me wanting me to provide y11 catch up work for their child after they chose to takr a holiday in y11. Literally, whatever a school does is going to be pleasing to some parents, some organisations, some teachers and equally challenged by other teachers, parents, organisations.

If you want to see what a waste of time.

Ds started his secondary. He was ill the first day but struggled in just so he had an idea where everything was.

He was off the next day

When he returned I had a letter saying his attendance was only 50% and I had to attend a meeting each week until his attendance had improved.

One boy was hospitalised by a senior set of pupils on the new parents and pupils night.

He got told his attendance was 0% and had to improve. He was in hospital.
His mother was also called in each week.

They said these meetings were invaluable as attendance improved over the year.

Basic maths would have told them that attendance would improve over the year.

There was no need to waste so much of everyone’s time.

Basic maths would have told them that attendance would improve over the year.

Poor attendance at the start of the year can be an early warning sign of attendance being an issue. In your circumstances your sons attendance "naturally" improved as he didn't have much other time off all year. For some families this won't be true. For some families, early intervention and support from school can really help improve students attendance. Particularly those students who need extra support to get into school in the first place. Schools target everyone with a broad brush approach at the start of the year, because they don't know which type of situation they are dealing with.

I don't think you can be annoyed about a school taking a proactive approach towards attendance.

They solved ds’s attendance. He left after 6 weeks and the boy who was in hospital left also.

@Oliversmumsarmy That is shocking! They treated a hospitalised boy who had been injured by other pupils as if it was the parents' fault and they had no responsibilities in the matter?

Well as Teachermaths said

Poor attendance at the start of the year can be an early warning sign of attendance being an issue

I don't understand the "teachers wouldn't last in the real world" comment either. Any job where people are dealing with the general public eg. A comp, seems more real world to me than say working in a company dealing with select clients. At the dcs' school they sometimes have to break up fights, (and that's just between the parents ) which sounds quite "real world" to me.

The hospital incident is pretty bad from the school tbh and clearly should have been dealt with differently.

I stand by my post about attendance though. Your ds's attendance should have gone through the standard procedures (which it did).

I’ve read lots of this thread but not absolutely all, so please forgive me if this point has already been raised.

Lots of posters on here have said ‘oh, of course, allowances/extra support for SEN pupils’ and I wonder how many of them have actually parented a child with additional educational needs.

My child finally got an ASD diagnosis at the end of year 10. Also has suspected dyspraxia but we are settling at this point for what we can get. We had been fighting for this since Reception, getting knocked back, on the end of frankly fictitious professional reports, and endless waits for every type of assessment. Primary was wonderful and did everything they could. Secondary was another matter. We told them about his issues when he started, received assurances from the SEN team that they would be helpful, and then followed years of misery. No support or allowances at all because no diagnosis. Teachers weren’t briefed, no in-school support for social and organisational problems. Grades were OK so that was all. Every parents evening we heard the same stories; the detentions piled up because of things that just couldn’t be helped. Anxiety was so high, depressed, sleepless etc. Constantly bullied. We did what we could at home but without school buy in it didn’t get us very far.

So please don’t assume that all the additional needs out there are recognised or supported. And think of the impact of years of being punished for things your brain just isn’t configured to do. In the workplace we are so much more understanding of all sorts of minor shit.

@Isitmybathtimeyet You are right - I suspect that many schools don't encourage a diagnosis because that would put more pressure on them to help, and they may not have funds to do it.

Some children have very specific issues, and their problems can be solved without huge budgets. But if they aren't diagnosed they don't get any appropriate help and don't reach their full potential.

My ds did need some help with dyslexia. The assistance he needed was very limited, cost very little, but made a huge difference to him. I wonder if schools always assume that the help required is going to cost a fortune?

Isitmybathtimeyet
It entirely depends on the school and the assessment set up.

Most schools I've worked in have had regular SEND updates, profile updates and 'treat as...' guidance for staff if we were in the process of assessing. I'm not saying it happens everywhere though, but that's been the norm.where I've worked.

Equally, in 2 schools I've worked in they've paid staff to do the diploma that allows them to assess and sign off some specific learning needs because the wait on EdPsychs and EHCP plans is so long. It took one of our secondary students til after their exams in y11 for us to get the ASD diagnosis that was so obvious from y7. Again, not saying that's true everywhere but the waitlist for services is long and often beyond the control of schools.

The more schools I go into I would say there's a lot of very good practice out there. Some schools aren't doing a good enough job, but I also think there's sometimes a disconnect between expectations vs reality of the system and conclusions jumped to like staff don't care, they're not bothered, nobody does anything about SEN etc.

We actively encourage diagnosis. It means we can better support pupils and get some funding for this. Schools who don't do this are in the minority, there is no incentive not to.

I agree with Lola. It depends on the school.

Funding for outside services is all but gone. Students can't get assessments, Ed psych appointments etc therefore they don't get diagnosed. It should be a national outcry.

Having said that, we had a parent who had got her son /rightly) diagnosed with ASD. it took her until year 10. At no point did she inform the school. It's been so difficult to get any information on how best to help this student so we are mainly left winging it.

TeacherMaths

1. It doesn't even take 5 minutes. At least if you don't make a fuss. How long does giving detention take? I suspect the 'neglectful ' pupil will try to argue with you. Takes much longer than 5 minutes. 2. Also there needs to be staff to mind pupils in detention, another waste of resources.

And you're going to tell me that a school can't afford some pencils? They can waste lots of time on other stuff, it seems from this thread. The pencils would be a mere drop in the ocean.

noblegiraffe

In my school of 1000 pupils I've never known anyone not to have a pen, no. I think that's quite representative, don't you?

Obviously there will be poor students who can't afford the pen. But then they shouldn't be punished for something they can't help, or should they now?

Imo not having your own material is annoying enough. There's no need for punishment.

And of course if you treat teenagers like children, they'll behave even worse. When I was in school, there was a marked difference between behaviour depending on the teacher. Power tripping had exactly the opposite effect (still does on me).

I don’t blame schools for the wait for assessments. I am very familiar with the system having had three children now with additional needs! The system is freaking under pressure. BUT my experience has been that schools don’t deliver also on what they CAN do. Probably also pressure on them, and numbers, but it becomes yet another battle.

But I can blame the Senco who told us that there was no need to push for assessment if no harm was being caused (the meeting was to discuss our child being physically attacked by a bully) and who promised us interventions over and over again that never materialised. Or the different Senco (have had experiences of four different secondary schools) who took a year to action a simple change to process that took five minutes. Or the Senco who claimed to know nothing about our child’s problems who had had a full report from three sources. Or the Senco that ‘forgot’ to arrange the extra time for GCSE mocks.

You must work in a middle class utopia.

Every school I've worked in, from MC suburbs to inner city has had students without pens. Every. Single. Class. Every single day. Not because they can't afford them, not because they can't organise one, because they cannot be bothered to bring one. They openly admit this. Therefore I issue a detention.

What would you say to students who didn't have a pen repeatedly? (no SEN, just can't be bothered to bring one).

Centralised detention system means I do one half hour detention duty every half term. From a time cost benefit analysis it comes out pretty well. Kids behaviour has improved as they know there will be consequences.