Sick and tired of this... [sad]

[DemiLee33]

Hello everyone and thanks for listening.

I am at breaking point with my son's secondary school teachers/policies.

For I.E for ridiculous, unwarranted punishments.
Detentions for not having a pen or a shirt untucked.
Most good students in secondary schools are in I.e at least once within their first 2 years of starting. Most students have had at least 10 detentions by the time they have completed year 8.

Once again I have been in meetings, lodged complaints, cried on the phone to them. My son has cried and is so low in mood now because he feels beaten down by them. I have had 2 teachers admit to me that a lot of 'normal' 'good' kids are in i.e or on report.

Their policies are awful! Nationwide, secondary schools are so extreme with their punishments for such ridiculous, unwarranted reasons. Some schools have even started saturday morning detentions!!
I am so tired of not having my voice heard. Anyone else feeling like this? I have started up a fb group to vent about this and it may take off it may not. I have emailed relevant organisations and lodged complaints but these schools are a law unto themselves.

Sorry for moaning
xx

Lola I DO know some teachers are good. They usually stand out. But where they aren't obvious, I assume that they don't have my children's interests at heart. I don't have time to work out good/bad teachers. In the same way teachers don't have time to differentiate between the kids that are well behaved/want to learn and the disruptive ones.

At the end of the day teachers have their career and get paid. My kids haven't got that yet and the teachers have the potential to jeopardize that for them

Hebdenbridge
I don't blame you for being utterly disillusioned after your experiences. You can opt to home educated and that's allowed by law if you wanted them out and having a different type of education, but that's got cost implications 're being at home.

But there are many schools and teachers not like that. We do genuinely care and want what's best for kids. I've met my fair share of arseholes in the profession, and senior leaders who've ended up promoted higher than their capabilities, but they're genuinely the minority.

Lola I have to work and can't afford to home educate

All my stories are notkids versions of events, all verified by teachers, email evidence. All complained about. BUT I shouldn't have to be complaining about this stuff. It's all, just basic human decency stuff. And there is NO WAY this would be tolerated in treatment of adults in a workplace. Teachers only try this crap because they think kids are less than human

School is just such an oppressive, authoritarian, abusive environment ime

These policies are ridiculous and, in so many cases, are a new academy sticking plaster - they perceive that draconian discipline policies and ridiculous uniform requirements impress some parents, and it's much easier than dealing with these issues by good teaching.

For people who ask what schools' behaviour policies should be, I would say it's perfectly simple - they should be policies that allow for proportionate sanctions. If you impose detentions and internal exclusions for forgetting a pen, you devalue those measures as punishments, and you leave yourself with nowhere to go other than exclusions for very serious problems. Given that exclusions are generally regarded as a measure of weakness by schools and the law on exclusions is going to be tightened up next year, these schools will find themselves with major problems.

Hebdenbridge
You're right you shouldn't have to complain about it. That sounds very much like a horrible place.

That's a horrible person issue though, not a teacher issue. In my experience people who are dickheads with students are also dickheads with staff and would be dickheads in any area of life.

Some students have managed in year transfers to other schools. Could that be an option? Also with your complaint, did it go through the school system fully? If so and there's no resolution you'd have grounds to go higher.

It's not just 1 teacher! It's at least 8, I would say. No, DD doesn't want to move schools and leave friendship group.

Younger dds experience showed me it ISNT individual teachers. It's institutional/cultural

The best way that will probably stand to be challenged is parental action backing union action (teaching and support staff) taking joint action against specific academy chains because it's usually something that comes top down from large corporate MATs rather than individual schools

Sounds like Dan Rosenberg at Simpson Millar is the person to go to for any challenge - www.theguardian.com/education/2019/jan/30/legal-action-prompts-academy-to-consider-isolation-unit-criticisms

Isatis
He did a good job highlighting the misuse of isolation rooms. Given what had been said about that trust between teachers, is wasn't terribly surprising.

It's such a shame that valid pieces of work like that get hijacked by self-important behaviour consultants who like to claim any time working in an isolation room in silence is the worst thing on earth. Then when people point out it's just a silent classroom (and of course any bad practice should be raised), they invented 'deep confinement booths' which aren't even a thing. They're desks with desk dividers, like study pods in university libraries or between desks in an office.
There's a particularly unpleasant campaign led by people with an interest in selling their own terrible excuse of behaviour management trying to whip up fury over the simplest 'schools have rules and sanctions' thing because they have a vested financial interest in doing so.

Not separating very real problems and misuse of sanctions from 'school has sanctions and believes nobody should be allowed to systematically disrupt 28 other children's learning' makes the whole debate a mess in places.

One major problems with rigid policies about uniform and equipment is that they tend to discriminate severely against children with disabilities. Children with autism and dyslexia tend to have problems with organisation, and also those with autism and other sensory issues have major problems with things like ties, shirts buttoned to the throat, tight shoes and socks, long sleeves and the like. Yet far too many schools refuse to acknowledge that and claim that they can't make exceptions. Apparently they're totally unaware of the fact that, not only can they make exceptions, they must under the Equality Act if they don't want to be on the wrong end of disability discrimination claims.

It's also incredibly hypocritical to tell students effectively that they must never, never break rules whilst the school itself is blatantly breaking the law every day.

Interesting article here - claireyr123.wordpress.com/2018/12/10/isolation-seclusion-inclusion-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-1164

Isatis
The issue is absolutely not making reasonable adjustments. I think that's key. It's not a meaningful behaviour policy that's the problem. It's not making reasonable adjustments.

I really like my school's behaviour policy. It's clear and fair and consistent (give or take the 'cool teachers' who think the students respect them for being down wiv da kidz). I would say we are more lax on some things than I would choose, but we make reasonable adjustments and its a good policy with positive relationships and consistency at the heart. I have no doubt some on MN would say elements of it are awful (we do equipment checks, we sanction for missing homework), but there's always a warning step before a sanction for smaller things.

The best lesson I got on my teacher training is that you can be very strict as long as you are fair, friendly and consistent so it's not the severity of the sanction that's important, it's the consistency. (E.g. a consistent break detention every time a set rule is broken can actually be more effective than going straight to isolation). Some schools miss that in my opinion and equate isolation with success but actually what's probably made that element of the policy successful isn't the severity, it's the consistency. I would guess, they could probably easily have a consistent centralised detention system at lunch and it would have a similar effect for the majority of kids. But different schools have different contexts and needs so I try not to judge.

Isatis, interesting, thanks.

Ugh, shirt untucked... Jeez, in most workplaces it would raise an eyebrow. Unless you're going to be doing a job that is authoritative in some way, untucked shirts, loose ties etc. are non-issues.
This could easily be solved by just abolishing the ridiculous uniform and replacing it with some kind of reasonable dress code. If it were not for power tripping schools, obviously.

As to forgetting pens... who doesn't? It's no reason for detention ever.

I only send them to school because I have to by law

I know you said you worked so couldn’t home ed and your dd would miss her friendship group but the law says that children need to be educated. Not that they have to go to school.

It doesn’t even specify what they have to be educated in.

If it did get bad would your dd be ok left during the day with something like an on line school.

I feel I sent bright bubbly Ds who really wanted to learn into school and within a short time he was depressed and didn’t didn’t want to learn anything,

I know I am not the only one schools have done this to.

It has taken years to undo the mess they made of him.
I feel for all those children who have parents not able to drop everything and concentrate on them to right the wrongs schools have done.

Dd went to a very relaxed private school.
It wasn’t an academic school. It only had academic lessons for half the week. (Makes you wonder what schools are doing the other half of the week) and lots of children came out with 8 GCSEs
Even Dd scraped through a handful. I was so amazed when she called me to say what she had got I actually asked her to check they had given her the right envelope.

Amazing what a school can do if they got rid of all the nonsense and actually concentrated on the pupils.

Dd who is dyslexic was tested and was given a full hour lesson each day in a small group with other dyslexic children to show them how to read and write and discuss their individual issues.

Ds went to a state school they didn’t teach him anything. At 12 years old he still couldn’t read or write properly (probably because he is severely dyslexic and has dysgraphia) but they wouldn’t test him for dyslexia or give him separate help . Because he wasn’t tested.

He has only now had a proper diagnosis through college

As to forgetting pens... who doesn't? It's no reason for detention ever.

And the student who then has no intention of ever bringing a pen to school because they know they’ll just be handed one out every single lesson, causing a disturbance at the start of every single lesson, every single day...that’s fine is it?

This could easily be solved by just abolishing the ridiculous uniform and replacing it with some kind of reasonable dress code.

You muppet - that wouldn't solve anything. You'd just be replacing untucked shirts/peanut ties for short shorts/midriff showing t shirts/ stiletto heels/ risqué slogans or whatever else school decides isn't reasonable. Kids will always want something to rebel against!

Yes - I could just image the interminable discussions on why every extreme fashion choice is not considered reasonable!

Stilettos - 'but these are considered smart office wear'.

This could easily be solved by just abolishing the ridiculous uniform and replacing it with some kind of reasonable dress code

"miss this top is reasonable, you can only see the outline of my nipple, not the whole thing"

"these trousers are reasonable, they only hang 6 inches below my bum crack"

"these shoes are reasonable, my mum wears the same ones on a Friday night out"

Non uniform days are bad enough. Uniform is great for the majority. Cheaper than buying normal clothes for school. No one notices that you're wearing the same blazer and bottoms all week. If you only have 2 shirts no one else will ever know. If you have to borrow uniform from the school supplies, no one will know.

Usually parents who are anti uniform don't see these kind of problems in their lives. Not everyone is as privelidged as your children.

titchy
Exactly!

Most students will push on uniform. I know I did as a kid and I was a good kid. It has always been the case. Most of the time a reminder and a quick sanction suffices.

Have a dress code and the majority will follow it and push it a little (just like a uniform), but the people who are incapable of sending their child to school in trousers because they'd rather their DC wears leggings / buys £80 trainers and then whines when school point them to the 'no trainers' rule will be the people who'll argue the toss about their child wearing their boxers above their shorts, their child wearing a crop top despite a no midriff rule, their child having a facial piercing despite the stud earrings only rule. They'll be the ones who fine and froth and claim that any element of the dress code is terrible to their child and their child should totally be allowed to wear a bra style crop top and anyone who says otherwise is clearly a perv who wants to specialise their child etc.

At the non uniform school I worked in (overseas), it worked well and behaviour was excellent, but it was excellent because students and parents valued education and the school and they respected staff. There was no negotiating whether they'd talk when staff said not to. No negotiation over the dress code. No arriving unprepared and complaining to mum that the teacher pulled you up for it.
They didn't have the attitude to education that a large minority have in England where anything other than free-spirited negotiation over everything is a human rights abuse.

*sexualise
Oops.

anything other than free-spirited negotiation over everything is a human rights abuse.

Oh god ain’t that the truth. It’s so bloody wearing.

anything other than free-spirited negotiation over everything is a human rights abuse.

It's the worst.

From parents too who phone up "you kept xx for 2 mins against their human rights"

Too true noble.

Thankfully I'm in a school where quite a lot of the students are quite confident and self-assured so they think nothing of telling said 'you can't... my mum said...' types to shut up.

England where anything other than free-spirited negotiation over everything is a human rights abuse

I've not seen anyone on this thread, with this kind of attitude.

noblegiraffe

Gosh, that would be 5 minutes at most. Ooooh, shocking. Could easily be solved too by a pot of pencils on the desk.
My school, not in Britain mind, didn't give detention for petty little things like this and you know what? I've never known anyone to not have a pen. Run out of note paper maybe. No fuss, just someone give them some.
By giving detention, as a pp said, you devalue (more) serious problems.

If you of course make a fuss about these things, you shouldn't be surprised kids try and push things.

titchy

Interesting. As soon as everyone gets out of school, no-one has a uniform, yet most of us manage to dress appropriately. You introduce a dress code banning bare midriffs and other, indeed, inappropriate clothing.

I went to a non-uniform school. We were banned from mini skirts/shorts and sleeveless shirts/dresses. Still don't understand why because in Italy both can be part of the professional dress code. Still, we didn't all walk around half naked.

It's bonkers for schools to spend valuable time on uniform issues. Appearance is not the be all and end all of someone's existence. What message does that convey?