At what point is going private NOT worth it?

[lexlees]

I was chatting to a friend recently and we got chatting about schools. Their only daughter goes to a top private school and it is a real financial strain on them. They reckon they spend 40% of their net family income on school fees and extras. All her wages go towards the school fees and even then only covers 2/3 of it - the remaining third comes from her husband's salary.

From my perspective I don't see how it is worth it. She maintained that it is not unusual. They just want their child to have 'every advantage' because both she and her husband went private.

Their girl is bright but didn't qualify for any bursary or scholarship and failed to get into the selective state school (they did try all three). Although the girl was top of her class in her state primary, she now feels so much pressure because she hasn't gotten an 'A' in anything yet. She is now no longer the bright one and it took two terms to make friends. I'd love to say she is a lovely girl, but honestly, she is an ungrateful and mean brat (she used to beat up/be cruel to my ds every time they were alone - then lie about it - hence I don't bring my ds anymore to their house).

They are putting minimal money into pensions and have only 'one term's worth' of savings. They haven't had a holiday for two to three years, never eat out and hardly buy stuff (except for stuff for their daughter - so she doesn't feel 'left out' at school) as they have a mortgage as well. They also don't have parental financial support or expect much of any inheritance either. I feel like my friend has changed into some penny pinching miser, always working out how to save pennies and she is just worn out from a low paid job!

It got me wondering if other people are just making ends meet to send a child or children private. Is she correct that it is normal? At what point does it become NOT worth it.

SettlinginNicely I've already given many of those recommendations to Greenleave.

I think the problem they will have is that they don't seem to understand that being good at maths will not be enough for the more selective schools, state or private. There is an increasing emphasis on English/literacy in the entrace exams. This is the area she should be focusing on.

That's depressing Bobo.

We aren't rich. We notice the fees. We definitely don't intend to "top up" what we are already paying for. And to be honest, DD is busy with the all the work they are giving her. I don't know when she would have time to do extra.

The tests for state selectives at least are designed not to be a lottery otherwise they'd be pretty pointless really.

I used to find it depressing but I just shrug my shoulders now. It think it's merely the reflection of an über competitive environment. To some extent you have to join in or leave. And, tbh, DP and I can cover everything school asks and more between us. That is true of some parents but not true of all parents and I can understand why the latter don't advertise the fact but ensure their own DC aren't at a disadvantage.

Yes, I would agree that English (reading comprehension, composition writing, vocabulary, etc.) is important. In fact, it seems that a high level of maths is a given, and then the children are separated out on literacy where the range is greater.

If English isn't your first language at home, doing something extra whether with mum or dad, or most likely a tutor if mum and dad aren't facile in English, a bit earlier than the end of year 5 would seem imperative. Starting tutoring in April for a test in September, is not much time in those circumstances.

SettlinginNicely fully agree. I gave a lot of help and advise to parents I know. It didn't necessarily result in their DCs getting a higher exam score (if they did then they earned it) but hopefully it does mean they will get into the same school which will certainly be a bonus.

Are your DC at school in England Bobo?

By saying it's a bit of a lottery, I meant there are lots of factors that can influence the outcome of the test like: did they sleep well the night before, are they very nervous, are they going to spend too much time on a question they can't answer...

I think the French approach to education is very different.

I don't get the point of sending a kid to a good school and then buying in tutoring. There must be a danger of confusion/ overload. I'm sure for some kids it must kill enjoyment of learning, or even life. At a poor quality school perhaps but at a good school surely it's better to relax and trust the teachers?

My DD is at school in Paris (French/English bilingual school).

Mollo I completely agree about not overloading DC. I am very fortunate to live in a non-selective area but actually it is not just good fortune but also a positive decision on my part. As I said earlier my DDs' school is not considered good. However they are thriving and the teachers are all falling over themselves to promote their interests because they are so rare.

Many do not believe that I don't academically supplement their learning but for them it would be completely counter productive. Surely much better for them to have the confidence that they can get close to 100% in all subjects with just school input than giving them the impression they need to do lots of extra stuff at home. They also have lots of time for other stuff.

Molio,

I agree up to a point.

An English primary school is, essentially, working towards the statutory 'exit test' - Y6 SATs. Non-academies must follow the English Nationa Curriculum to get to that point. Academies ad Free schools don't have this requirement, but most, for obvious reasons, stick closely to the NC as a 'minimum requirement' for 'tested' subjects, and as a guideline for other subjects (the main variation I have seen so far has been in History, where some academies do not teach in a linear chronological order as the NC suggests)

However, for some parents, the key test is not Y6 SATs, it is the 7+ / 11+, because they wish to transfer to a selective or private school at these age points. State schools don't - in many partially-selective areas are not allowed to - prepare children for e.g. 11+ exams. Therefore a tutor who specialises in preparation for these tests is a benefit - increasingly, it seems, a requirement - for DCs taking them.

You can argue - I would do so - that being able to 'buy' more likely access to state selective schools through tutoring is 'wrong' at a society level, because it reduces the chances that bright children from economically disadvantaged or chaotic families are less liklely to attend such schools. Some parents - like us - therefore choose not to use tutors, even though it disadvantages our own DCs. (And no, I did not intensively home-tutor either). But the fact remains that tutoring is the norm, at some level, in most areas where selective entrance exams exist.

I was just curious, Bobo, I do hear that it happens here in England too. I hear about it at our local mid-range privates. I haven't heard about it happening at the more elite London day schools, but I am new to that game.

One of my cousins, in London, describes an environment that is a lot more cut throat than ours!

teacher you have summed that up really nicely. As a parent, that is how it appears to me.

Some parents in private school and outstanding state schools still have their DC tutored.

We've never had the time or the inclination.

That said, if my DC were struggling in any area, I think I would!

I wonder where the DC get the time? Suddenly DD has longer days, much more homework, more extracurriculars, and, frankly, the curriculum and the teaching is pitched so much better that looking for a tutor to prop it up seems nonsensical.

That said, if I child is struggling, I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting them to learn.

Thank you all for your advices, ypu dont know how much I am appreciated them @mum and @settle

I came from the educational system that there were exams each term and the marks were transparent every child knows where they are in the class in each subject so its very hard for me to understand uk system where everything is confidential, hidden, but I dont say its not a good thing

From English to be honest I dont know where she is now is it on the right track(even for maths I dont know either but with slightly more confidence that she grasps the new concepts quick and loves maths, we have never stretched her though, I was too focused on foreign language, swimming, music until now). She loves readings we have books every where, bookcases in her room, in living room and we just had a playroom built as a library for her with 1 side of the wall full of books, we started go to library from this year(we thought in the past that we have enough range of books for her to read at home). Her birthday is coming and her present will be 35 hard cover children classic books so even we are crap with english and cant do anything about her English we have been trying to nurture her love of reading.

She had 3a in English last year and the commentary was "nice". I dont know what else we can do now

I encourage her to write and she loves writing her diary and there are still words/grammar mistakes although she writes much better than me so I cant tell.

And we are looking for tutors now but agree to save for year 5 starting

My question is: before starting seriously mostly at year 5 what did you do with your children in helping them both maths and english

@kesstrel: thank you for your link regarding to learning French

A lot of people like Bond books.

www.bond11plus.co.uk/shop

We bought a few, but we didn't have the discipline to keep going. We never finished them, and we did not buy more. However, a girl in our neighbourhood got a 50% scholarship at a local private school and her mother feels it was down to the Bond books.

Also, just finding books that your DD likes to read and making time to read everyday really helps. I think it probably helps build vocabulary, reading comprehension, grammar and spelling more effectively than anything else. My DDs really enjoyed the "Daisy and the Trouble with..." books a lot in year 3. (Not the most gripping books, but they happily read about a dozen of them to themselves. It got them started reading for pleasure on their own.) If those are to easy for your DD, perhaps David Walliam books? Both of mine found him very funny.

SettlinginNicely teacher you have summed that up really nicely. As a parent, that is how it appears to me.

One point they didn't make was the fact that some areas are actually facing school place shortages (my local selectives are adding bulge years on to try to compensate). If DCs don't get into a local school the cost in time and money to get to the alternatives is not something that many people will be able to manage for 5 - 7 years. I'm in the outer London area. alternative schools will be in more rural areas and therefore present logistical issues.

Greenleave,

As a parent, to support my children in Maths I simply made certain that they knew all their number facts to 20 (e.g. 13 - 6, 8 + 7) instantly, and all their times tables and inverses (6 x 7 = 42, 42 divided by 7 is 6) instantly. We have also always done a lot of 'everyday' maths - comparison between temperatures, including negative numbers; time, comparison of time (e.g. comparison between race times for different athletes of motor cars, in hours, minutes and seconds) and timetables; distance and speed; weighing and measuring for cooking and buying e.g. cloth for making costumes; money and change. Both my DCs are able mathematicians, and were interested in it, so to be honest this sort of thing cropped up really naturally.

To support their English, we have lots of books, and more importantly, we discussed them a lot. I took them to places that are interesting to visit and more talk about. Talked about e.g. characters in films and TV programmes, and compared them to favourite book characters. Modelled 'reading' as a thing to enjoy [really tough one, that!]. Went to hear storytellers and see live theatre.

IME as a teacher, the difference between 'good at English' and 'great at English' is very often in vocabulary and ideas. Some parents and schools, looking to 'prepare' their children for tests, go down a very dry 'grammar / structural' route, that gives the children e.g. complex sentence structures to use, but nothing interesting to write about! If you can give your DC lots of interesting 'real life' experiences, stuff their heads with lots of different stories (whether through their reading, your reading / telling, theatre, film or TV), and surround them with rich vocabulary through talk, you will give them a head start.

teacher I understand the pressures at primary level in selective areas but I was really talking about secondary level, as I think Bobo was. I think the issue at secondary level is that competitiveness breeds more competitiveness but I'm sure at a good school there's sense in taking a leap of faith and trusting the teachers. I'm not talking about extreme situations where there's suddenly no teacher in the run up to public exams or something like that, but in ordinary circumstances.

Ah, OK. . I have no experience related to that at all. I don't know whether any of the children heavily tutored to access local selectives then continue with tutoring, but I suspect not because most tutors work on an annual cycle.