At what point is going private NOT worth it?

[lexlees]

I was chatting to a friend recently and we got chatting about schools. Their only daughter goes to a top private school and it is a real financial strain on them. They reckon they spend 40% of their net family income on school fees and extras. All her wages go towards the school fees and even then only covers 2/3 of it - the remaining third comes from her husband's salary.

From my perspective I don't see how it is worth it. She maintained that it is not unusual. They just want their child to have 'every advantage' because both she and her husband went private.

Their girl is bright but didn't qualify for any bursary or scholarship and failed to get into the selective state school (they did try all three). Although the girl was top of her class in her state primary, she now feels so much pressure because she hasn't gotten an 'A' in anything yet. She is now no longer the bright one and it took two terms to make friends. I'd love to say she is a lovely girl, but honestly, she is an ungrateful and mean brat (she used to beat up/be cruel to my ds every time they were alone - then lie about it - hence I don't bring my ds anymore to their house).

They are putting minimal money into pensions and have only 'one term's worth' of savings. They haven't had a holiday for two to three years, never eat out and hardly buy stuff (except for stuff for their daughter - so she doesn't feel 'left out' at school) as they have a mortgage as well. They also don't have parental financial support or expect much of any inheritance either. I feel like my friend has changed into some penny pinching miser, always working out how to save pennies and she is just worn out from a low paid job!

It got me wondering if other people are just making ends meet to send a child or children private. Is she correct that it is normal? At what point does it become NOT worth it.

Corronation Street circa 1960

"But we were talking about state schools choosing not to do things that are effective but that cost little money."

Practically everything people have suggested state schools should be doing do cost money. Or involves stopping doing things that benefit lower ability children to pay for things that benefit higher ability children!

But Mollo the point I am trying to make is that a MFL GCSE is not going to allow DC to compete with the high percentage of those who are bilingual. That is why I agree it is a social good to expose DC to additional languages but I think it is a waste of a GCSE option for anyone not bilingual or planning to specialise in languages.

"howabout the provision for MFL must be aimed at those who aren't currently bilingual"

The most successful outcomes for MFL for monolingual DC are when they are given the opportunity to aspire to bilingual status i.e. in schools with a significant population of DC who speak the language being taught within their families.

Greenleave Then even worse I have couple of friends who I believe not fully sharing their true 11+ stories to me as their husband saying one thing and when I asked them they said their child only had little tutoring and relaxed, too early nothing to worry about as their child never did much when they were in year 3

I think, with regard to state selectives, this is very much the case. Whilst some will start preparing in year 4 (certainly not the majority) very few will be preparing in year 3. None of my local tutors would start until after the Easter of year 5. They couldn't as it would overlap with those who were due to sit the exam that school year.

For private selectives the majority use preps. so any additional tutoring normally only takes place in year 4 or 5 as it will only be needed as a top up to the exam tuition at school. This very much depends on whether they are looking at 11+ or 13+ etc.

I would suggest you post on the eleven plus website. There is a section for independent school applicants. However, I do think the majority of people will tell you that year 3 is too soon to start preparing:

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewforum.php?f=31

Greenleave I need to know the truth so I dont: be too late in coaching my child and extend her ability in maths and english. And at the sametime I wanted to avoid over doing it if she is ok.

I dont know the answer yet, I know she is ok academically for now but compare to other children'bench mark in selective or highly selective then she might be way too below

I understand that it's tempting to think about education in terms of comparison with other children, but I think that's the wrong approach. A common problem in poor schools (in both sectors) is to decide a child is OK if they are doing at least OK relative to their peers. What you actually want to be doing is comparing how she's doing with how she could be doing. Is she learning as fast as she's capable of learning (sustainably)? I don't mean hothousing and stressing her out, but rather, with challenge every day and progress such that you could say "well, maybe if I really pushed she could go faster but it's clear that would have disadvantages that would make it backfire". I'm convinced that what the best schools (in both sectors, again) get right is more about what they don't do than about what they do: they don't waste children's time on work that is pointless e.g. because it's too easy.

Molio Thu Higher performing schools aren't in any way protected from the budgetary problems indeed they're suffering more than most.

I can only go on my own experience but certainly my local secondary schools are part of a consortium and they do work with each other with regards to 6th form provision.

It is interesting the way comparrisons between sectors seem to be against the lower performing comps and the higher performing privates.

I think this happens because it is the effective choice that many parents are facing. That is, take their local comp which isn't high performing, or pay and access high performing privates. Paying is your last option when you aren't lucky or cannot work the system.

What is MP? I know RP is received pronunciation.

Is RP set in aspect? Does RP mean the way the Queen spoke back in the 1950s? If so, then Jacob Rees-Mog must be the last man in Britain even coming close. Even the younger Royals don't speak RP by those standards.

Perhaps RP has slipped and slided and changed a bit?

Is BBC news caster, neutral English the new standard of "proper" English? It seems to be clear and offend no one.

sorry aspic not aspect (auto correct)

howabout you're coming from a privileged perspective, on the language front, with bilingual children. GCSE options are taken at an early age and cutting off languages at that point is brutal and insular.

Bobo I'm sure that's the case but certain areas of the country are overwhelmingly white British. Sometimes you just have to do the best with what you've got.

MP is modern posh.

A phrase I have shamelessly stolen from another poster. The new RP.

"But Mollo the point I am trying to make is that a MFL GCSE is not going to allow DC to compete with the high percentage of those who are bilingual. That is why I agree it is a social good to expose DC to additional languages but I think it is a waste of a GCSE option for anyone not bilingual or planning to specialise in languages."

But that is taking a very 'functional' view of education - that we should only learn those things that are directly useful to us.

The intellectual training that MFLs offer - or frankly, many other 'pure' subjects - is still of value even when that is not 'directly applicable' in further study or work. DS is taking 2 MFLs for GCSE, one with a different alphabet. The skills he is learning - decoding, encoding, grammar, logical thought, a degree of memorisation, applying 'rules' to new situations - as well as a basic ability to communicate and comprehend the surroundings in another country - are all useful 'intellectual training', certainly as useful and applicable to his likely future study of, probably, History or Economics, as GCSE sciences or music.

Certainly my study of Latin and French as a child were much more useful 'indirectly' than they have ever been directly - though my Latin has had a second lease of life since I have been teaching Grammar in upper KS2!

Royalty invoice is in the post, Shes......

'my study....was' or 'my studies...were'. Apologies.

Mum that can work in an urban model but is nigh on impossible in a rural model.

(Laughing at Modern Posh. That would be my accent - I have been mocked all my life for speaking like a Radio 4 announcer, but faster)

Molio - Other European countries (e.g. France, The Netherlands) have developed MFL curricula for different school contexts. Since they have been playing around with them for decades, there is a lot of very useful learning to be had. It is, IMO, really worthwhile having different tracks within a system.

"Perhaps RP has slipped and slided and changed a bit?"

No- RP is a very specific accent (although those who use it would deny that it was an accent!) that has all but died out. It's interesting (if you are particular sort of geek) to listen for the last remains of it- Alexander Armstrong, for example says "Let's pley Pointless!"

Greenleave, preparing children from year 5 is the standard where I live, but slowly people are beginning to start even in year 4. As the population of London grows, the competition for selective school places, grammar and private, becomes more intense and people look for advantage, while simultaneously talking down their preparations out of fear, shame or embarrassment.

I shared the name of our excellent tutor with four other families at my DC's school and another mum who also uses her told me to stop. Not to help the others.

My suggestions:

1. Contact tutors at the start of year 4. (If they only start in year 5, good you can then get your name down early on their waiting list.)

1. Take the Sutton Grammar schools mock 11+ in the Spring of year 5. This will give you a bench mark and good experience.

1. Take the grammar school 11+s in September/October.

1. Take the independent school 11+s in January. (Target schools with scholarships and bursaries, if that is what you need.)

1. Make sure your DD's writing and reading comprehension is at a high standard. This can only be done through practice and feedback. So make sure your tutor can do more than just the maths.

1. Get on the 11+ website and read the boards for your area and the threads about target schools.

Good luck!

"while simultaneously talking down their preparations out of fear, shame or embarrassment"

... or competitive instinct?

So RP is not a going concern!

I think if an accent is noticeably posh, that might be a problem. Just being neutral is probably and advantage though.

Well, maybe Bobo.

I am competitive, I do want the best for my own DC. I'd be a liar to pretend otherwise, but, really, when my DDs are sitting exams with 800 other applicants, the one or two girls from their school who may use the same tutor seem irrelevant. The tutor is good and will end up filling her tutoring schedule to capacity with other kids the same age in the same area, applying to the same schools, so it may as well be kids I know!

Greenleave, my son passed the 11+ in Redbridge this year, we only started preparing after Easter in year 5. He is by no means a genious, but he attends a good state primary and is usually challenged in most subjects. You need to know your child well, and you need to know the requirements for the test well, and you need a bit of luck, too. Even for a well prepared child, my feeling is that it's still a bit of a lottery...

At DD's school (where there are lots of highly competitive parents) the amount of surreptitious tutoring to ensure DC get ahead is astounding!