At what point is going private NOT worth it?

[lexlees]

I was chatting to a friend recently and we got chatting about schools. Their only daughter goes to a top private school and it is a real financial strain on them. They reckon they spend 40% of their net family income on school fees and extras. All her wages go towards the school fees and even then only covers 2/3 of it - the remaining third comes from her husband's salary.

From my perspective I don't see how it is worth it. She maintained that it is not unusual. They just want their child to have 'every advantage' because both she and her husband went private.

Their girl is bright but didn't qualify for any bursary or scholarship and failed to get into the selective state school (they did try all three). Although the girl was top of her class in her state primary, she now feels so much pressure because she hasn't gotten an 'A' in anything yet. She is now no longer the bright one and it took two terms to make friends. I'd love to say she is a lovely girl, but honestly, she is an ungrateful and mean brat (she used to beat up/be cruel to my ds every time they were alone - then lie about it - hence I don't bring my ds anymore to their house).

They are putting minimal money into pensions and have only 'one term's worth' of savings. They haven't had a holiday for two to three years, never eat out and hardly buy stuff (except for stuff for their daughter - so she doesn't feel 'left out' at school) as they have a mortgage as well. They also don't have parental financial support or expect much of any inheritance either. I feel like my friend has changed into some penny pinching miser, always working out how to save pennies and she is just worn out from a low paid job!

It got me wondering if other people are just making ends meet to send a child or children private. Is she correct that it is normal? At what point does it become NOT worth it.

Oh, and bell ringing. I forgot the fantastic opportunities for bell ringing.

happygardening is your son boarding in Winchester? If you are near there, surely Winchester has ballet, concerts and plays? Southampton isn't that far down the M3 either.

Winchester and surrounds have a lot of waitrose

Just saying.

I agree with the sentiment that there is a point where the sacrifice is too much. Like the 1 bed flat, or no pensions. If you can comfortably afford it, then it's worth it ofc.

Winchester also has a John Lewis.

DH got an academic Scholarship to Winchester, but it only offered 50% fee remission so his parents didn't think sending him was worth the sacrifice because 50% of the fees at Winchester were still more than the other private schools at the time. His sister went to St Swithuns on a Scholarship though.

Personally I'd have thought Winchester would give more value for a boy over another private school than St Swithuns would for a girl, but then I'm not that familiar with Winchester's girls schools, maybe all the rest are terrible? His family did holidays mostly in the UK but did manage to pay for 2 extra curriculars for each child and live in a nice (but not naice) area of Winchester. Personally, I think that Winchester would be one of those schools worth really busting a gut to send your DC to if you could, but there are many schools I wouldn't try that hard for.

Waving to HappyGardening from another Winchester ish thread!

Headdreamer I don't live anywhere near Winchester, he like all the boys full boards.
I personally loved rural life as a teenager but I was a horse/farm/animal obsessed child.
To decide if paying is worth is depends very much on the individual family and their circumstances nd what you want from your school. In our area over 80% of children come to school on the school bus so after school activities are virtually non existent, lunch break only is only 1 hour this means many schools are unable to provide "cultural capital" even if they wanted too.

I think there probably is value in a private education for the kind of kid you describe - ie bright but not that bright. I think those are the kids who tend to benefit, whereas the really bright will do well anywhere they go and the less academic kids will probably get more support in the state system.

at the notion that there is no cultural capital outside London!

I think it depends. The local independent schools offer better facilities, more space and, possibly, more flexibility for very gifted athletes musicians to combine school with training. But those are really the only things we don't get from the local state school plus parental input, and our children would benefit far more from us having the money to spend on extra curricular activities, trips to the theatre, a house where they get a bedroom each etc than they would from an independent school.

Of course there is "cultural capital" outside London although as London is a global city it is the ultimate location for "cultural capital". Its no coincidence that the vast majority of exhibitions, plays, museums etc that DS goes to are in London, this is despite it being a little further away or similar distance to five other major UK cities. But in rural areas with a relatively low density population and poor or non existent public transport links then as I said above opportunities are very limited and frankly rather parochial.
We unlike many it would appear from many posts on here have high achieving well regarded state schools (in my opinion that's debatable) with vacancies, in our area, so assuming that results would be the same then as I said above its about do you get more than your state school would offer if you paid and also how important to you is that extra your DC is getting? You then balance this against any financial sacrifices you have to make and what else you would with the money.

I think that there has and always will be parents who send their kids to private school because it's the done thing, they can afford it so it's no hassle. But (and this is just from my observations around our home) there are a 'new' lot of parents who have a perception that private schooling is the major point on a tick list without thinking things through with being able to afford it just blinkered out.

FWIW I also know of adults who attended private school and hated every minute of it until they finished their schooling at the local comprehensive.
And how do you actually compare? Is it how folk do as adults in later life? If so, then any I know who attended private school are doing fine, but not any better than the rest of us in the same peer group who attended state school.

Happy, cultural capital is about so much more than access to plays, exhibitions, museums etc. Yes, that's part of it, but it's far more complex than that.

For me it wasn't worth it. I could have afforded it had I stuck to one or two children and had we made other decisions like not agreeing their father would stay at home.

I was privately educated as were my 4 siblings (west London day schools) and each of their children are privately educated in similar schools.

I decided not to partly because I considered the benefits of a large family living in the country to outweigh the benefits of a private school. Being a snob I wouldn't have sent them to a local private school where the main benefit seems to be avoiding the local accent and nice playing fields. So we would have had to stay in the city.

I take the view that if a kid is bright it'll be fine in local state. If it isn't then what's the point in spending £££ on privately educating it. All it needs - commercial awareness, confidence, exposure to the wider world - it can get at home.

If the child is outstanding there are grammar schools but I don't imagine mine will go that way

Finally, we live in a village with650 people. Everyone knows each other. Not sending a child to the village primary makes a pretty unattractive statement. I prefer the benefits the whole family get from being part of the community than shunning it.

Oh and...I'm lazy. The 30 min trip to the nearest private school would puss me off. And tbh I suspect the whole durbarry boots thing would piss me off

And how do you actually compare? Is it how folk do as adults in later life? If so, then any I know who attended private school are doing fine, but not any better than the rest of us in the same peer group who attended state school.

You can't really compare later life achievements. People who go to private schools tend to have family connections. David Cameron and George Osborne probably will get where they are today even if they go to the local comprehensive.

The premise that bright pupils do the same in terms of qualifications is simply untrue.

The most selective universities spend inordinate amounts of time and resources attempting to widen access to those in the state sector and work out the right level of contextualisation.

The gap between the sectors is large. And many of my colleagues believe the new GCSEs and decoupling of AS levels will only make matters worse.

Subjects like English, MFL, ancient languages, music and the humanities generally have a worse gap than STEM.

However, worse still than the qualification gap is the outcome gap. We are still seeing those from the independent sector hugely over represented in the areas/industries that have an effect on a macro level.

I agree with the wikipedia definition The term cultural capital refers to non-financial social assets that promote social mobility beyond economic means. Examples can include education, intellect, style of speech, dress, or physical appearance.

I'm with Kamepi it's not about plays and museums. I can't imagine Prince Harry going to a classical concert. He's more likely to be drunk and smoking weed in a hip London club. I think cultural capital is about being part of the 'snobs'.

Suzietwo
Would the locals really be offended at you not using the local school?
I lived in a village of 800 people and tons used the local privates not the village school which afaik is single form entry and undersubscribed despite being OFSTED outstanding!

head I think it's a slippery mixture of home/school life that allows, nay facilitates success.

The two work seamlessly together both in terms of expectations and support.

head taking Prince Harry as an example is just extreme/daft.

Most DC in independent schools are not royalty! And have nothing to do with that set.

What they have is day to day access to encouragement/information/expectation/enrichment.

re the difference to outcome - i dont think that private education doesnt assist achievement in academic and vocational subjects. im just not sure that this is relevant/the route to success today or that it will be relevant in 20 years time. but thats my risk to run on behalf of my children.

of my group of 10 friends from school (highly selective west london day school) i am one of two with a career. the rest have married well and stay at home. im sure their education facilitated the marriages but FUCK ME I DONT WANT THAT FOR MY CHILDREN!

nightsky - it isnt about being offended. its about beng a part of the village. the one family who has gone private are excluded from much of what goes on, not because people turn against them or turn them away blah blah, they are simply not involved because they dont have the day to day contact

sorry, i say success above. i mean happiness.

suzietwo I don't think academic achievement is the route to success today either. At least looking around me, DH and I are cleverer than most but we earn a lot less than most. We both have PhDs so by definition we are quite academic. Many with PhDs I know earn peanuts too.

I think it's the soft skills that matters. That's why all the talk about social and cultural capital from an independent education.

"I think cultural capital is about being part of the 'snobs'."

Not sure I understand this..........

In terms of making a lot of wonga, someone's education generally is important (obvious exceptions aside).

But you need to be educated in the right things at the right places for the right jobs.

It's not just about intellect (though one needs to be clever enough) it's about how and where its trained. Knowing where is the right fit for the right job and gaining access to it is an obvious piece of cultural capital.

I don't believe the 'well supported child will do well anywhere' line.

Not in a school in special measures, 35+ pupils to a class, which can't attract or keep good teachers, has rubbish facilities and police on site to monitor the drug issue it won't. That was our local choice had we not paid.

Whether it's worth it will vary depending on each family I think. We can afford it without sacrificing other things, I'm not sure I'd have done so if it meant living in poverty.