Are private schools worth the fees you pay?

[lupo]

Hi

I was looking for some advice from those of you who send your kids to private school. I have one son and recently went to visit Staines Prep School and really fell in love with it.

The thing is we could just about afford the fees, but I will need to work more hours (full instead of part time)as well as few sacrifices along the way. not planning on having any more children, and would like to go private as classes seem smaller, and sounds like children get lots of help and support.

Just wanted to know of your experiences of independant schools and whether good ones are worth the money. Any advice much appreciated.

Like the school but am going on gut instinct, and it is one of the few we could just afford.

DD has just started private school this year. At present we are definitely happy with our choice. Class size is small with FT teacher and TA, the resources are great, the provisions ideal. We went for the school on gut instinct - it just felt right for DD when we visited, over and above how we felt for any other school visited (state and private included), so we went for it.

Yes, we feel we can justify the cost (which also includes dinner, after school care, dance lessons, etc.) and haven't had to make work/life balance choices. We only have one child though; it would be mpre of a push with two and impossible for us with mpre than two children.

DD's school doesn't seem much like what Xenia desribes - not sure where we are going wrong

And yes, there are some parents there with lots of money, but also plenty there who have made some form of sacrifice to be there too.

DC, absolutely. It's the issue of do the children at private schools do better because their parents have a high IQ which usually correlates to being able to earn more (except in communist china where they paid doctors what they paid dustmen) and thus pay for fees (and therefore they would be clever and do well anyway) or because the school helps.

We need a study of the thick as a plank (Prince Harry, 2 GCSEs or whatever and his ilk) and earnings and state and private schools correlation I suppose. Arguably the less clever child might benefit from work contacts in life, accent, friends in a private school more than the cleverer child.

More private schools are selective that's true, although not all. I know a lot you can get in and they can hardly fill the places which are not very academic.

There was also that study of how people got on in journalism. In theory the state school non Oxbridge clever person has an equal change. In practice because of the way entry is arranged contacts play too big a role. I have 3 chidlren at university and it's interesting seeing how their friends get jobs, who is able to get the work experience at the best places, who knows who to ask and what kinds of schools they went to.

As it's hard to prove the academic differences etc I don't see why my soft factors are being poo pooed. It's fun to drink Pimms on the lawn chatting to clever parents rather than avoiding rottweilers on the arms of men with tattoos who were let out of prison last week... okay sending myself up here a bit.. but physical environment matters to children too. I want them to study in a lovely place with fields and yes lakes. Two of the children had lakes at their day schools. I like lakes. What's wrong with wanting lakes?

I live by a lake , but send my children to state school.

Xenia - you really do think that having lots of money is the be all and end all.

I don't but it helps. In fact some of the least happy children are those shunted off to boarding school by parents who don't want to spend any time with them. Children need love, routine and emotionally intelligent adults around them as role models. But most people probably want a similar standard of living to that of their parents. It's a fairly basic psychological need for most of us so I think my own children would be happier if they were able to have some of the things we had. My daughter for example wants to be able to keep her horse. Now if she chooses certain career options that won't be so easy and others will so money may matter for that. I'm more interested in their being intellectual challenging and being able to hold their own as teenagers in debates with me than them living in pursuit of filthy lucre for its own sake. I hope their Catholicism and values makes them understand they have more duties and obligations than rights and that they always want to help others. I just happen to think if you earn a whole load of money you can actually do more good in the world than otherwise. Look at what Bill Gates is doing with diseases worldwide.

In fact a lot of the parents at private schools aren't that well off. Many struggle to afford fees. I just think there is a lot more hidden value than just A level grades.

I fail to see how you are likely to be well -rounded and able to get on with all sorts of people by going to a private school!

I went to very expensive schools, I am not well rounded and able to get on with all sorts of people - and very few of my school mates are either. Not much of a suprise having spent no significant time with anyone who didn't go to a private school (85% of the population) for so long!

getting on with all sorts of people is overrated mousie. i do and id much rather be a hermit.

Confidence. That's one of the best things you buy at the better private schools, personal self confidence, ability to talk to anyone at any level. My children also knew a lot of children from state schools because of their hobbies too and they played sport with some state schools.

Give me a class of boys from Westminster and another from a London comp within 5 miles of there and I bet the Westminster boys are more confident whether they're tlaking to the school cleaner or the prime minister. Self assurance, bearing, self belief etc

OMG, what utter rubbish!

I was privately educated and I wouldn't subject my children to it, but we are lucky enough to live in an area with excellent state schools.

If the state schools were cr*p I'd grit my teeth and send them to a private school.

Yes, private education gives you a good deal of self confidence, but unfortunately this isn't always justified. Nothing worse than a COCKY BRAT!

I know many pleasant, well adjusted children who attend private schools and some very confident self-assured state school pupils.

This is one of those threads where everyone believes that what they are doing is right.

They are more self confident. Whether parents want that or not is another matter and of course there are exceptions - many bad private schools and many bad state schools but I was talking overall and I still think my experiment re Westminster and a local comp would prove me right. Lots of other advantages too.

Surely one of the best aspect of private schools is that you're less likely to have disruptive people in class so it's easier to concentrate on the teacher.

There is a study Xenia, aobut "thick as a plank" kids with private education, Though it's not quite 100% proof of anything.
It seems that that privately educated kids with a given set of A level grades tend to get lower class degrees than state school kids.

One obvious possibility is that private schools are good at getting kids through A levels and into universities at a higher level than they would if state educated
However once the superior support of private education disappears, they revert to their true level.
I'm tempted by that idea, and others will like it.

But it's not the only explanation of course.
I have no numbers, but my anecdotal experience is that drug usage by students with richer parents seems to be higher.

another is a "gating" effect. Kids from state schools have to have (on average) more ability to work without support, and this may be inherent or acquired. Since university educaiton tends to be more self-driven, it may be more suitable for state-educated kids.

That's the problem with these correlations.
You can say that "type x kids do y more", but you run inot problems finding the actualy mechanism, and working out whether it's because something causes something else, or has a common cause.

Also the studies don't seem to take into account gender differences for reasons that seem more to do with PC than science.
Girls are vastly less likely to have a private education, for instance.

The people I know as adults that had private education are not earning any more than the ones I know that had state education. EG my sister - state educated is a chef. Her husband - privately educated (also a chef) but my sister has a job with more responsibility than him and more money.

Friend of mine - He was state educated - in a good managerial position in a company. She - privately educated - a teaching assistant.

I could go on...

The friends I know that have kids in private education seem to have cocky brats for some reason as fortyplus says.

I wouldnt send my kids to private education unless the local state schools were really really awful. Thats just my opinion. We all have to make our own decisions based on our kids and what is available to us.

lupo - dont think that by sending your los to a private school - they will get better results - thats not necessarily the case I dont think. Unqualified teachers are allowed to teach in private schools - the state system does not allow that.

I am interested in this topic as we could afford private school, but at the moment we have both children at a good primary school - I was thinking of sending them to a private secondary depending on how the local comprehensive was doing.

I do sometimes wonder whether they are missing out on something important, but am not convinced so far or they would be at the local prep school and I'd be out working, instead of sitting on my fat SAHM arse.

My friends seem to have differing views on the subject.

I went to private school and university and ahd a reasonable career, dh went to a good comprehensive and university and has a good career.

Xenia - less disruptive children in the class in a private school - not necessarily the case either. Maybe in a way, because there are less children in the class but a friend of mine whose kids go to private school always seems to be talking about kids x y and z causing problems in her DSs class. I asked her once about it and said that I assumed you wouldnt get all that in private school (naive of me I know) but her reply was

"no, you do get it because some rich people think that by sending their kids who have no discipline to a private school will 'sort them out' and do the discipline for them"

1. from 0-18 children spend less than 20 per cent of their waking hours at school (less if its fee-paying)
2. Bill Gates - bad example - he dropped out of university
3. of course kids at private school can speak to cleaners - they know where they are in the pecking order. The kids at the comp will not only be confident speaking to the cleaner they'll also see them as equal - cos it could be their mum/uncle/neighbour
4. garden parties are over-rated.
5. educational background of people in the city (see DC's post) is very difficult to assess in these terms as so many are not British

dh went to a comprehensive and had far more extra-curricular interests than I did at my independent girls' school. he is far more rounded - and confident - in every way. And if you measure career sucess in £s he's beaten me by a factor of about 10.

I find threads like these amusing in many ways. There is so much preassumed beliefs from both sides, about both state and private schools. And most of it, if looked at carefully, is rubbish!

There are good and bad schools in both sectors.
there are good and bad teachers in both sectors.
There are good and bad parents in both sectors.
There are good and bad pupils in both sectors.
The are state schools and private schools woth nice surrounds; both with less nice.

Yes, private schools often have smaller classes and more wrap around care - but not always.

Yes, state schools often offer a wider circle of friends from a more varied background - but not always.

I could go on....

Thhe important thing to do is to choose a school which suits you and your child best, within your own limits (be that distance, cost, religious beliefs, whatever).

If you are happy with your choice, for whatever reason, there is really no reason to have to justify it.

Poppies, that has been my experience too. Simply put, the first private school we went to was full of appalingly behaved brats. Those that weren't brattish looked old beyond their years and had stutters/twitches or nails bitten to the quick. A small class dominated by very disruptive/violent kids is a pressure cooker for 'normal' kids.

Horrible.

I spent days sitting in on classes at the next school before my kids even saw the place. No way was I going to pay for the behaviour issues I could get for free at our local state primary where 35% of the kids had SEN's, the majority being behavioural.

Paying doesn't automatically mean well behaved children. Only good parenting can ensure that.

I think that is well said Hulababy

Also, just a quick note to whoever was thinking about going private at secondary level. If you get a chance, start them in year 5. Year 6 is a real trog of revision and not, IMO much fun until entrance is out of the way. I've seen plenty of kids start at year 6 and they all strugle.

Yes, excellent post Hulababy.