Are private schools worth the fees you pay?

[lupo]

Hi

I was looking for some advice from those of you who send your kids to private school. I have one son and recently went to visit Staines Prep School and really fell in love with it.

The thing is we could just about afford the fees, but I will need to work more hours (full instead of part time)as well as few sacrifices along the way. not planning on having any more children, and would like to go private as classes seem smaller, and sounds like children get lots of help and support.

Just wanted to know of your experiences of independant schools and whether good ones are worth the money. Any advice much appreciated.

Like the school but am going on gut instinct, and it is one of the few we could just afford.

same researchers different headline:

Top jobs and highest salaries go to elite university graduates

Invest in property or invest in private education? Both with the intention of ensuring your kids end up financially secure.

If I spent 20k on a mortgage now I reckon I could buy a place for about 160k. What would such a property be worth in 20yrs time. They have doubled in the last 10 years so who knows. It's a risk as there could be a crash but hey private education is also a risk. You could end up in a bad private school.

I might have to go private if catchment areas are abolished -see this thread

We could afford for our children to go private. So we have made a positive choice to send our children to state school. We want them to mix with 96% of the country, not 6%!

Bloody hell - I have a look at this thread and GUESS WHO is rattlin' on about 'perpetuating wealth'!
Pity her poor kids - they'd better not fail at anything, had they?
I was privately educated and until a year ago had earned NUFFIN for 12 years - now I work part time in a job that BENEFITS OTHER PEOPLE but only pays £27K a year (full time hours).
So I earn about £11K - that seriously screws up the figures about people from Private Schools earning loads more than others, doesn't it?
Averages out at about £800 a year over the past 13 years!

JoshandJamie,

sounds very similar to my options. My ds (3) attends the nursery at the Harry-Potteresque ponceyprep, my dds are at the little state school.
TBH, after ds being at ponceyprep for three weeks I know I could never continue on with reception schooling there because it's teeming with not parents like Xenia (at least you'd never see them because the nanny will do school runs) but overgroomed go-to-the-gym yummy mummies in mummy trucks, with children called Monty or Pernille (no kidding!).

The lack of extra-curricular activities at the state school does pain me a bit, too - we sent dd1 to Stagecoach instead (she turned out to hate it), she has guitar lessons at school and does piano with a lovely teacher in the village, and Brownies in the village, too. Not paying fees leaves money spare to do such things with ease.

I've just proved that private education isn't all it's cracked up to be - I was privately educated and I think that 100 take away 6 is 96!

I can see both sides having done both, I DO NOT agree that parents should pay for University or indeed deposits for houses though.
The final straw for me in taking my children out of private primary school was meeting somebody who'd gone private all the way through and seeing how completely unequiped for life she was. She made some terrible decisions, her parents were still bailing out her, her husband and 4 children at the age of 40 and that is not what i want for my children.
It does them the world of good to have to learn to budget through Uni and i might pay it off at the end of them, but they won't know until they've graduated.

Educations doesn't just take place in school and that is what I think a lot of people forget.

The thing is though that school is not the only determining factor in how kids turn out. Hideehi the person you mention may have been unequipped for life even if she had gone to a state shool.

I am a bit of a waverer, which ATM doesn't matter as we can't afford private - well we probably could if we moved, cut back a lot, or if I returned to work. But if we could afford it easily and without worrying about where the future fees were coming from I'm still not sure what I would do.

There is a boys' prep school right next to ds' state school - they have a very fetching bright red uniform, so I am confronted with the issue nearly every day.

I really don't think ds is getting as much attention at his school as I would like, but I work with him at home to compensate for this. And I don't think it is such a major disaster.

Also part of me thinks that since I know so many people who did really well in quite OK schools, ds should be OK as long as he is motivated and gets home support. And then I think of all the other people I know, from quite poverty stricken backgrounds - I have an uncle who grew up very poor in India, he worked very hard and is now a Consultant in a London hospital - who struggled and worked hard to achieve a lot and I am really in awe of these people. And then I think my dss should be able to cope with being in a decent, if not outstanding, school. It might be character-building.

Well, the girls I was at school with are all normal grown-ups. Don't think you can tell the difference between them and state-educated adults tbh. Except that they've all got qualifications and professional jobs. But there are plenty of state-educated people who have the same. I did once bump into an old girl who was a bus conductor, though. Would love to have heard her story!

There was one amazingly stupid girl I met shortly after joining the school at age 14, though. She'd been privately educated since age 4, going to the kindergarten that fed our junior school and then onto seniors. I remember having a row with her because she supported apartheid. Believed the black people in S Africa were all backwards and primitive. I asked her if she'd consider Archbishop Desmond Tutu backwards. And she said he probably had a bone through his nose. WTF?

how are you deciding on value for money? had dinner the other night with friends and in the party there was a man who is head of house at a local public school which is one of the old traditional well known types (13-18). According to him, if you sent your child there and they took every single extra curricular activity going you would get your monies worth. otherwise send them to the local (v good) secondary and pay for the activities your child wants. and that's aside form the impact on family life of saturday school. it's not just about falling in love with a school but what it offers you and your children and what the impact is on you because that will affect your family too.

Then there are tables of which private school is best value too I think.

Some children from private schools do seem to have better grammar, spelling and spoken English which matters in life too, not just exam grades. In some ways I felt buying exam grades was near the bottom of the list. Clever children will do okay wherever they are. Surprisingly (re person below with uncle from India) there is more take up from Indian families at private schools than many other communities.

"16th May 2006
Top Marks for Value

"North London Collegiate School has emerged as the best-value, independent day school in London", in a survey recently commissioned by Halifax, reports "The Sunday Times" (Money Section, 23rd April 2006).

A survey of the top 100 independent day schools has revealed which offer the best academic value for money. The study compares each school's sixth form fees with the grades achieved at A-level, to show parents where they are likely to get the most for their money.

The survey has a method of measuring value for money. Dividing the cost by the A-level score produces an academic cost-rating which shows how much a parent pays for each A-level point. Therefore, the lower the rating, the better the value.

With an average A-level score of 436 points per student, North London Collegiate received an "academic cost rating" of £7.66. By comparison, St. Paul's Girls' School scored £8.87, City of London School for Girls scored £8.20 and St. Helen's, Northwood scored £8.14."

Was is it ever resolved what the OP's decision was on this matter?

There's more spin on this thread than 10 years of New Labour.

I'm feeling sorry for the original poster but can't help throwing in my thoughts.

Xenia, the poor acquaintance of you pondering over the decision of sending his/her child to Eton or not, I'm sure the alternatives would "only" mean public school y or independent school x, but not some rough 39% comprehensive.

I'm certainly not even remotely communist but sometimes I wish these sort of people would suddenly lose their money (even just for a while) just to see the expression on their faces if they didn't have that choice on a very high level and were forced to send their precious offspring to some comprehensive allocated to them by the LEA.

Probably he/she and you can't even remotely understand what it's like for parents who don't even have the choice between comprehensive a with 62% and comprehensive b with 69% who not just don't have the money to "choose" private education but can't even "choose" the "right" state school as places are just allocated depending on where you live (which is btw very often a matter of money as well) as even the average comps which are often heavily oversubscribed.

Taking out children for holidays: I really had to laugh, has it ever occurred to you that nearly all private schools have far, far more holidays than state schools anyway? So the private school parents may not even feel the need to take their children out of school when they have 2 - 2 1/2 months summer holidays, a month Christmas holidays etc. compared to 6 weeks summer hols and 2 weeks Christmas hols in state schools, all of it of course in the main season when prices are at the highest which, believe it or not, can be a problem even for many state school parents who "save" the money for education (which most don't have in the first place).

Although I'm quite offended by some of the things Xenia says, I can't blame her for thinking that state schools may not have homework.

With two children in a state school I have to say that they really don't get very much homework, at least not in reception, year 1 and 2.
And no, I'm not happy with that at all and makes me angry, as I think even a state school should be able to provide some sort of homework.

I have some friends with children in private schools who get a lot more homework and I think that this is one of the reasons why most private schools pupils are around 2 years ahead of state school pupils.

miljee, I'm doing exactly what your friend does because my children are in a state school.
We can't afford private education but are lucky enough to be able to pay for their instrumental tuition and other classes and lots of books and workbooks, and I feel the need to work with them probably even more because I think while a state school is not bad, it's far from ideal either.

And it makes me very cross that our state school is not able to provide at least some worksheets or maths problems for the children. I have to do it all myself, and believe me, it's not easy to motivate chidren if the work comes from you, not from school.

Xenia, why do you think a child can't have extra-curricular activities if they're in the state sector? My children do lots of music and sports classes, the only difference is that I have to bring and collect them (and no, we don't have a car but still it works). And they could even do lots of music/drama/art/sports at their state school, but then we might just be lucky in that respect.

Parents choir: Xenia, why can't you just join one of the many good amateur choirs which seem to exist pretty much everywhere, particularly in and around London? Even though they are open to everyone who masters the audition, you get very civilised people in them, unfortunately for you not all of them privately educated and upper class, but you wrote that privately educated people easily get on with people from all walks of life, and in a choir at least they all share a passion for classical music.
Why does it have to be your child's school to provide such thing? Whilst I'm sure it's fun, the school is primarily there for the children., not for the entertainment of the parents.

Oh, and about the thing that you paying for private education saves the state system sooo much money, I'm very sure that you didn't send your children privately for purely altruistic reasons? And I'm sure as there are still only about 8% going private the state sector would be able to cope with these extra pupils. Although it would make class sizes even bigger.

Also, for the others, I'm sure that there are lots of parents like Xenia. When I had my children in a private nursery most of the other parents actually were like here. Once I had mentioned we had no choice but send our children to the state school (albeit one high in the league tables) most of them ignored me.
And no, I'm not some sort of tatooed, drunk antisocial parent, but have a university degree (unlike some of those mums btw.), but it doesn't "count" in those circles.

And lovely the point about struggling to get the children to school on time. Probably a lot easier if you have a nanny and a car and some other sort of household help, which at least at the above nursery a lot of the parents had, even the stay-at-home mums who had only two children. I'm certainly not saying that all private school parents live in these circumstances, but proportionally probably more than state school parents. And of course the vast majority of state school parents still do get their children to school on time 99.9% of the time despite having no help.

I apologise for not being able to put everything eloquently but my mother tongue is not English (so probably not the type of parent you would want in either school).

You sound eloquent to me, Julia.

j, I agree with a lot of what you say. It's very unfair. I suppose my only defence is that as we have a fairly good chance to advance from whatever state we grow up in most of us can work hard to get good A levels in most schools and pick jobs which enable you to afford fees. Particularly with the internet any teenager can go on line and compare the wages of actuaries and nurses and then decide - right that career enables me to think about Eton and that one doesn't.

You're also right about the choices of that parent - it would have been Eton or another boarding or day school without the Eton (positive or negative) effect. I know a lot of boys at or who went to Eton and most of them are lovely by the way. Because it's very academically selective most boys doing common entrance have no hope of getting in. Prince Harry rare exception. You can't really buy a place there. You need the brains too and I always prefer clever men, top of my list of anything even over looks is brains, sexiest thing on the planet is a good brain. I'm getting off the point.

So a parent resenting the fact someone like me has a lot of schools to choose from and they don't as they're in the state system do you blame yourself for picking a less well paid job or not working hard enough at school or giving up work? Do you feel guyilty that you can't afford the best education for your children as you picked a career or area of the country you live in which would not enable you to do that?

By the way the person who said I didn't think state schools had home work is wrong. We know a lot of children who go to Watford Grammar and the Bucks grammar schools and other state schools. Of course they have homework but the poster here on this thread was surprised a parent might have homework and music practice to do with a primary school child and I was just saying most parents think it's a good thing to do with children in the evening.

also by the way mother tongue not English,... wow, that's quite an accusation to make against me. In this bit of NW London the private academic schools are so mixed racially, it's brilliant. In my oldest daughter's school in her year only 2 girls one of which was her, had 4 English born grandparents. Others born in Israel, India, Iraq, poland etc. Immigrants work hard and prefer to pay fees, much much more so than those who have always lived here in England. They buy into the private school system much much more readily, often because they were used to paying fees for good schools in their home country and because they know the way to succed is to work very hard. I am very very grateful my children have had all those children in their classes at school whose parent have such a massive work ethic. It makes me look like some kind of libertarian and means homework is always done and the ethos of the school is improved. The schools wide religious intakes too improves things. If entry is by IQ as it is in these schools you get such a fair system (although of course if you can't afford fees you're excluded unless you have funding) but you can get a much more mixed group than with the more snobby middleclass or even working class poorer parents where more racism sadly exists than those who earn more.

"but you can get a much more mixed group than with the more snobby middleclass or even working class poorer parents where more racism sadly exists than those who earn more"
By Xenia on Sunday, 19 November, 2006 1:02:21 PM

On what facts do you base that statement on?

"any teenager can go on line and compare the wages of actuaries and nurses and then decide - right that career enables me to think about Eton and that one doesn't."

It's a good thing that we don't all think like that or there would be a lot of unemployed actuaries and no-one to look after the sick.

"but you can get a much more mixed group than with the more snobby middleclass or even working class poorer parents where more racism sadly exists than those who earn more"

That's because cashism has priority over racism. They have already chosen their group based on money.

I'm not sure parents who pay for schools are all materialistic. It seems to be Blairs education is passing tests mentality that we seek to avoid in private schools wanting good results but also education in the broad sense, social responsibility, developing the rounded person and two fingers up to the national curriculum.

Children of immigrants (of all races) tend to work harder. If any of us move abroad we then tend to work harder too. It's a known pattern. You try to get on in the new country and perhaps place more importance on doing homework and passing exams than the indigenous population. My borough is 18% hindu and obviously the local private schools reflect that mix which is great. So you might get state schools some of which you can divide on racial lines and then private schools with a much better mix.

I said there was more racism amongst the working classes than elsewhere in the UK. How can I prove that? I just thought it was so from what I'd read and looking at areas of the country where the BNP has most support anmd knowing the institutions in the City of London I work with which seem to be colour blind meritocracies because that is what makes money. Exclude half your recrtuiment group because they're female and you lose out in the market so it's short sighted to discriminate therefore if you're in business to make money you don't discriminate.

Hi

I am the original op and got to say never expected such a response to this thread. Expatinscotland, yes we have decided to go down the private route based on may of the positives (though not all!!) that have been outlined. We can just about afford it if I work more hours (9-2 everyday) so we are goning to give it a shot.

This thread went a bit wild so I bailed out, though I have been reading all the responses.

Thanks to all who contributed

In an ideal world, state comprehensives would be just that - paid by the tax payers providing a comprehensive education. However, having had a brother who attended a top fee paying public school, and myself having attended a failing comprehensive, I can assure you that a private education is worth every penny. If you are fortunate to have attended a good comprehensive - and there are some around, then lucky you. If you are fortunate to live in a catchment area of a good comprehensive, consider yourself to be part of the priveledge lucky few. Perhaps you should be extra taxes? For people like myself, who have had a lousy education and have suffered as a consequence, I regard private education as a necessity so that my children will not have to suffer what I have suffered.

Xenia
'Don't they get homework in state schools?'
By Xenia on Tuesday, 14 November, 2006 11:00:27 PM
Yes, it does sound an unbelievably ignorant question, doesn't it. But it's there in black & white - YOU asked it!