Almost unrestricted choice of Modern Language for yr9. How to choose? Help!

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So - you're 13 and about to move from prep to senior school. You have to choose one ML to take alongside French. (Grammar reasonably advanced so far, vocab somewhat neglected ...) After yr9 you can carry on with both to GCSE or drop the new ML. (No late changes of mind possible.)

The options are Spanish, Italian, German, Russian, Japanese, Mandarin.

You like, and will continue with, Latin. You're neutral (and damn lazy) on Greek. If your choice doesn't work out you'll have only one ML GCSE / IGCSE (not certain which exam atm.) And you're currently 13 less unenthusiastic about Arts than Sciences so languages are more likely to feature in your future school career.

Your family are dithering. Pros / cons blah blah blah ...

Please advise.

Thanks zero, will have a look!

Sidetracking again but ..... I'm amazed at the common perception on this thread that Spanish is an easier language, and I wonder how many of those who have stated this have studied Spanish at a higher level. I think part of the problem is that Spanish wasn't taught very widely to people of a certain age or above as it was still a relatively closed country until the late 70s, and so few people studied it as teenagers. It is easier to class a language as 'easier' when you've never struggled with the verb endings, common lack of subject, or the subtleties of pronunciation ( think hablo, habló). In my opinion, the only thing easier about Spanish is the phonetic pronunciation.

That's interesting sauvignon. You said earlier that Spanish and French both have complex grammar structures once you get to a certain level of understanding.

Could you explain what sort of level of difficulty you mean? The child in question has recently been learning about the subjunctive in French. (I say learning about - not sure how much has been absorbed ...) Would they find pre-GCSE Spanish interestingly challenging or would they come home saying "we've already done all that in French ..."?

The spelling (inc accents), endings and pronunciation are easier and more consistent in Spanish than French, and if they have studied French grammar, and even more so if they have learnt some Latin, they will already be familiar with the grammatical structures, so the learning will be much easier than if they were starting from scratch. And in fact even when learning from scratch, is easier than French. Which is why lots of schools are choosing the easier option - especially as now languages have to be taught in primary.
Few people take languages beyond GCSE - and if they do they will then have the intrinsic interest, and probably ability to understand more complex and subtle features.

"I'm amazed at the common perception on this thread that Spanish is an easier language, and I wonder how many of those who have stated this have studied Spanish at a higher level"

We're talking about GCSE though, aren't we? It is generally accepted as easier at that level- or do you disagree?

Years ago, I did the Foreign Office language learning aptitude test (MLAT), which tests various aspects of your ability to learn any foreign language. I seem to recall that they divided languages into four or five different "levels" of difficulty. I'm pretty sure that Spanish was in the "easy" category.

I'm amazed at the common perception on this thread that Spanish is an easier language

He's already doing Latin and French - I too did Latin & French, and it meant I could quite often get the gist of written Spanish and Italian, without having formally studied a single word. Would have had a clue about stringing a sentence together myself, and wouldn't stand a chance listening to it, but if you're starting a new language with that background, it is going to be far easier than one where you don't know the alphabet, doesn't have similar grammar or share much etymology.

You won't need to worry about things like imperfect subjunctive till probably A2, if not degree, and if you're studying it to that level, then you've already been hooked and will put the effort in. But at GCSE level, you're going to be using basic present, future and past tenses to describe your family, ordering food, travelling on public transport, what clothes you're wearing and things like that - not an in-depth literary critique of Cervantes or whoever.

I must stress that this is only my personal opinion, but I think that the reason that people generally class Spanish as easier is because they nearly always come to it with a prior knowledge of another language. Like EBearhug, I can pretty much read any Latin based language now because of my knowledge of French and Spanish, but I would not know how to form a language I had not studied.
Spanish has just as many irregular verbs, cognates, gender agreements etc. to manage as French and so in my opinion is of a similar level of difficulty. Spanish has suffered historically in its reputation as many secondary schools taught Spanish whilst the grammars offered French and German. The GCSE data does not show that students tend to achieve A grades more in Spanish, so one can only assume that the MFLs are of a similar difficulty. However, as I said before, Spanish it is a phonetic language which makes reading from a text and speaking much easier. (But the speed of spoken Spanish by native speakers can cause problems in the higher listening papers and lots of pupils spend their first few years trying to speak Spanish with a French accent )

i didn't say it was easier, i said that due to having French and Latin he would find it fairly easy. and yes, i did Spanish at degree level and i came to it having been brought up bilingually with a French mother and having done Latin at school.

German, as it and French are the most wanted languages by UK employers.

So it really is just me who regards most GCSES as simply a means to an end? That years 7 to 11 are really just an opportunity to do as much interesting stuff as possible while under the safe umbrella of school, while clocking up as many As as possible- before the real work starts in 6th form and racks up at university? I honestly didn't realize that people whose children are aiming at Russell Groups angsted about GCSEs at all- apart from grades.

I would love to have had the chance to learn Japanese at school. I would pick that purely based on my own interest and preference. Of the European languages I think German is a great choice. That is just what appeals to me though. Any of them will be worth learning and I think your DC just needs to pick the one he is most drawn to. Surely he's leaning towards one or two of them? Most people seem to be innately drawn to some languages rather than others, e.g. Im very interested in Japanese but could take or leave mandarin, I like the thought of the Scandinavian languages and not bothered about Italian...

Hakluyt GCSE exams themselves are a means to an end but surely such a wide choice of MFLs presents part of the opportunity of 'doing as much interesting stuff as possible' as well as a one-off opportunity for a DC who may potentially continue to a MFL at advanced level.

Also as you know some DCs are lucky enough to do more interesting academic work earlier as a continuum rather than waiting post GCSE so that MFL will not just be about acquiring a basic linguistic level.
I don't really think most GCSE choices cause angst since for many DCs the selection is quite straightforward. However there is always going to be the underlying anxiety that a DC may forgo a subject that in fact could have sparked an interest later.

At this point (genuflecting to any idle gods on the lookout for evidence of hubris) I can honestly say that GCSE grades are the last thing on my mind.

However, this one chosen subject, particularly if the child likes it well enough to continue with beyond yr9, will provide a context for everything else. Books and magazines read (in Engish), food tastes and cooking skills developed, arts, crafts, music and films explored, trips taken, possibly native speaking friends made. So it matters.

it doesnt really make that much difference, honestly!

Might make a difference to what the child chooses as an Internet nickname in later life sanfairyanne.

DS did French first at school - he did really well at GCSE but languages just aren't what gets him excited. He chose Mandarin as 2nd because it looked interesting and different and Spanish would have been a bit "more of the same"to him, albeit an easier choice (for him) . Mandarin does require a lot of rote learning but it is doable. I would agree though that the level of proficiency at GCSE is low - he could just about tell a very young girl was saying something like - "nice dog" to our dog when we were walking in the park. The difficult bit of the GCSE is the listening paper, he found, which chimes with what others have said about tone. It gave him a chance to see if that kind of language would interest him later on. It didn't .

I do agree that the "GCSE" years give you a chance do try out interesting things, see where your interests lie etc, and are more than just grades. DS's school are pretty good at combining education with exam results (e.g. two mainstream subjects are taught but not examined to allow for more flexibility in teaching. )

That said, realistically the likes of Hakluyt's DS are going to need a very strong set of GCSE results with an ambition like Cambridge. 12 GCSEs surely is a big workload anyway so picking one that he finds easier (and by the way v. useful) isn't a big deal in my book if his ultimate goal is other than MFL and if he is stretching himself in the subjects he is enthusiastic about.

I'm pretty sure that DS convinced his university interviewers that he had an agile and enquiring mind by having independently studied his subject beyond the school syllabus and by his grasp of and enthusiasm for that subject - not because he chose Mandarin at GCSE. But I take the point - you don't get that opportunity again.