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Almost unrestricted choice of Modern Language for yr9. How to choose? Help!

193 replies

SpecialistSubject · 12/04/2015 19:41

So - you're 13 and about to move from prep to senior school. You have to choose one ML to take alongside French. (Grammar reasonably advanced so far, vocab somewhat neglected ...) After yr9 you can carry on with both to GCSE or drop the new ML. (No late changes of mind possible.)

The options are Spanish, Italian, German, Russian, Japanese, Mandarin.

You like, and will continue with, Latin. You're neutral (and damn lazy) on Greek. If your choice doesn't work out you'll have only one ML GCSE / IGCSE (not certain which exam atm.) And you're currently 13 less unenthusiastic about Arts than Sciences so languages are more likely to feature in your future school career.

Your family are dithering. Pros / cons blah blah blah ...

Please advise.

OP posts:
EBearhug · 14/04/2015 00:25

I chose Greek over German because I knew that there would be plenty of chances to learn German in my future and I would only have one chance to study Ancient Greek.
Smile
That's why I did Latin over German. (Have since done German from nothing to AS Level at evening classes. There weren't enough of us to do A2.)

Kampeki · 14/04/2015 00:54

I have studied all but one of these languages to varying degrees of fluency, but at least to GCSE level. The one I haven't studied (apart from a few basics) is Mandarin.

I think the choice depends on your goal tbh. For "easy" marks and relatively fast progress, you can't really beat Spanish or Italian. With a background in Latin and French, they would both be very straightforward.

German would definitely be good if he is interested in philosophy. It's also a personal favourite of mine - just like the way it sounds.

Russian offers a bit more of a challenge in terms of grammar etc, but it's interesting to learn. Definitely worth doing if you can go beyond GCSE and read some of the Classic Russian literature in the original. Seeing The Cherry Orchard in Russian probably ranks as one of my top favourite experiences ever.

Japanese is a fab language and I love it - I'm probably biased as it is the one I am most fluent in these days, but it was fascinating to learn and really helps to provide a window into a completely different and wonderful culture. BUT I understand that GCSE Japanese is much more basic than GCSE in most European languages, so you might not get very far with it, and to make real progress with it, you do really have to put in the work. Some languages can be picked up quite easily. Japanese - at least the reading and writing - require real effort.

Happy to answer any questions you may have. :)

SpecialistSubject · 14/04/2015 02:14

That strikes a chord Kampeki - I do think this particular child might get most enjoyment from any language that provides a rich heritage of theatre and lots of interesting new stuff too - both to watch and to take part in. Art might be another focus of interest. Or dance ... Orchestral music of course. And there's a burgeoning interest in politics. Goodness - so many plus points for Russian - just when I thought the mists were clearing. (And again, I know it's not my decision - but I'm likely to argue vehemently for whatever seems best to me.)

I mentioned Manga to the child a while ago - not quite there (yet?) but an interest might arise given an existing love of other types of graphic fiction and endless Manga obsessed friends. What else is thrilling in Japanese culture - or sport perhaps? Outside the pursuit of black belts. (I'm vaguely aware of Japanese theatre and literature but less confident of their appeal to a terrifically mainstream English teenager.)

I'd ask the same of Mandarin speakers - what's an appealing way "in"?

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summerends · 14/04/2015 03:13

Kampeki reminds me of another factor in choosing a MFL. Just like an instrument how some sound may be more or less appealing or exciting to his ear. Might be worth letting him listen to some, particularly the more exotic ones in case it helps his shortlist.

summerends · 14/04/2015 03:13

Kampeki reminds me of another factor in choosing a MFL. Just like an instrument how some sound may be more or less appealing or exciting to his ear. Might be worth letting him listen to some, particularly the more exotic ones in case it helps his shortlist.

SpecialistSubject · 14/04/2015 03:45

Yes - some listening is a good idea summer.

And some browsing among the foreign language shelves of a decent bookshop - though they're somewhat emptier than they used to be.

Hah - itunes is what we need. Films and music may provide the knockout punch. Or games. Are there separate German, Mandarin, Spanish, etc games that reveal national characteristics? On does one just change the language on whatever international blockbuster you're playing?Confused

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JessieMcJessie · 14/04/2015 04:45

OP, a few nuggets from my own experience. I studied Latin and French at school (passing up the chance to try German), read French and Spanish (the Spanish ab initio) at University, I travelled a lot in S and Central America as a student, I learned Portuguese privately then went to work in Brazil for a while and I now work in Asia where I have done some Mandarin classes and travel frequently to Japan.

I went to about 2 night school classes in Russian but never pursued it; however a school friend of mine went on to read it at University and now has a civil service job so vague that we are fairly sure she is a spy.

As others have said, learning Spanish is a walk in the park if you know French grammar so it would be an easy GCSE to bank but a waste of a chance to get access to full time language teaching in a school environment.

My good friend is fluent in German after studying it at University and living there for a while. She is high up in corporate comms at a multinational pharmaceutical company but she only uses the German sporadically because it is never the common language in an international context. Her German collegeagues are impressed at her skill and now and again she can eavesdrop without people knowing but it's basically a novelty.

Your point about the Chinese embarking on huge infrastructure projects in Africa is spot on. I come across a lot of Mainland Chinese Mandarin speakers in my work. Some young professional Chinese have hugely impressive near-fluent English learned without ever setting foot outside China. However there are just as many who can't speak a word and will always rely on interpreters (it's not just a case of "the young speak English and the older don't so eventually they all will", it 's a bit more random than that). It's no longer considered that unusual for a foreigner to speak Mandarin well enough to do business and many do so extremely well, reporting that they'd be utterly excluded if they didn't - even the English-speaking Chinese don't behave like the Germans or the Scandinavians and will revert to Mandarin at any opportunity. However to really speak it well you have to have lived in the PRC and your DS may find that when competing for jobs etc in the future he is up against a whole generation of US/Canadian/British born Chinese who speak both languages to native standard. They are the ones with the best future opportunities at the moment and they are returning to the East in droves after University.

It is a very tonal language (4 tones) and many words are identical except for the tone. The Chinese are not good at working out what you were trying to say if you get the tone wrong. If you say the Chinese word for "house" in the wrong tone, even if the vowels and consonants are pronounced perfectly, you may as well have said "combine harvester". It sounds that different to them. Therefore it is not a language that is easy to learn if you are not outgoing in class and willing to make all sorts of weird noises until you get it right. There's also a danger that if the teacher doesn't correct you every single time you will labour on under the illusion that you are getting it right when you are not.

As others have said, the concept of the characters shouldn't be too off putting though because the teaching methods for the characters at GCSE will have been devised carefully and the grammar and vocabulary will be taught in pinyin (i.e. transliterated using our characters, with diacritic marks to indicate the tones). Interestingly, many eduated Chinese can also write their own language in pinyin these days. They use it a lot for text messaging - input in pinyin and then they get a drop down menu that allows them to select the right Chinese character.

Grammar-wise, it's good mental exercise to learn a system that differs so funamentally from a romance language. Mandarin is easier in some respects than many European languages as no genders, cases etc, but of course has its own mind-boggling weirdness such as literally hundreds of words to learn for "some", practically a different one for every noun it seemed to me in my limited experience.

I suggest that your DS maybe watch a few Mandarin films with subtitles to get a feel for the rhythms of the language; they speak it in Taiwan and there are a lot of light Taiwanese teenage films to choose from.

Others are better placed than me to comment on Japanese but it is an amazing country and the language is not at all tonal, so much easier to communicate from the word go as a learner. The Japanese generally have very poor English speaking ability so the ability to speak Japanese is a must if you want to live there (although you can manage fine without it on holiday). However it's not as important internationally as it once was.

Finally swedishEdith I agree that Portuguese sounds a bit Russian, but that's only Portuguese Portuguese. Brazilian Portuguese is much more "open" and easier to learn and understand; I'd thoroughly recommend listening to some Brazilian music like Daniela Mercury for a taster.

Thanks Op for a really thought-provoking question and I'd love to hear what your DS eventually chooses. However I did have to chuckle a bit at your comment

"I would be dismayed at the thought of an English teen not having the opportunity to study French literature in the original at least from GCSE level." I loved French but God I hated the literature when I was 16 - La Porte Etroite is possibly the dullest book ever written and don't get me started on Le Rouge et le Noir. I'm not sure many teens would sare your dismay Smile.

JessieMcJessie · 14/04/2015 05:06

Just reading back, while I don't think that Spanish would be the best use of a teaching opportunity here, it really does go way beyond being something "to pick up for holidays" and you're right to try to alter your view on that. It is incredibly useful worldwide, albeit more in the public sector than the private sector. I sometimes almost forget it's spoken in Spain, for me the focus is very much on the Americas. And learning Portuguese was easy with Spanish under my belt (albeit that lessons were still required) and Brazil is right up there in the BRIC axis.

The problem with acquiring language skills young is that it can sometimes shoehorn you into an area that you may not actually be interested in as you grow and mature, becuase people will say you should not waste such an advantage. I think of the children of a good friend of mine who has a Russian wife and lived in China. They were trilingual in English, Russian and Chinese before the age of 5. I wonder if they'll ever be allowed to work in a job that doesn't need any of those languages.

nooka · 14/04/2015 06:29

My children are both studying Japanese and although it's obviously hard they have both really enjoyed their classes. One major reason is that they have a very good teacher, and also everyone in their classes is very motivated.

However we have just come back from a three week trip to Japan and ds after two years of learning was very disappointed at how little he could read (the reading is his favourite part, appeals to his problem solving but dyslexic brain). This is because very little was in Katakana/ Hiragana, which is mostly what they have learned so far. At one point he got really annoyed and started saying that the Japanese were just wrong to use Kanji at all (black and white teenager huh!). So I'm not sure if he is going to be as motivated next year.

dd on the other hand is all geared up for an exchange (likely three months in Japan the year after next). She is very into Japanese culture, anime, manga etc so has more intrinsic motivation I think. dh who is also learning Japanese says it is a bit like Latin (he has got very into the grammatical structures).

JessieMcJessie · 14/04/2015 07:09

OP - Katakana and Hragana are the "letters" in Japanese where each one represents a sound, like our letters. So if you have learned the alphabet you can sound out the word.

Kanji are the Chinese characters that are widely used in written Japanese, each one represents a concept and you wouldn't be able to read out loud unless you have learned what the Kanji means. nooka will know more than me but my understanding is that it's not a case of each word having both a katakana/Hiragana version and a Kanji one, it's that some are written one way, some the other way and you just have to know.

Kampeki · 14/04/2015 07:52

Essentially, the meaning in Japanese comes predominantly from Kanji. Katakana is used mainly for loan words from other languages, while hiragana is used for word endings and grammatical markers etc. It is possible to write all words using just hiragana and katakana (because they are phonetic), but that makes reading incredibly difficult and inefficient. The kanji do take time to learn, but when you know them, it's so much easier to make sense of a text with kanji than a long string of katakana.

I can understand why it might be a bit discouraging for a kid to see how important kanji is, if they only know kana. Books for young children can be good for learners, as they often have tiny kana (called furigana) written above or alongside the kanji. To learn properly, though, you really need to put in the time and learn the kanji - it's the only way. I doubt that GCSE would get you far with that. Having said that, GCSE Russian wouldn't be nearly enough to enjoy the literature either!

OP, you asked about Japanese theatre. A lot of the traditional stuff (Noh, kabuki) is a bit impenetrable even if you speak fluent Japanese, but there is lots of modern theatre that is enjoyable, and there is quite a good film industry. Might it be an idea to get ds to watch a few films from the different countries to see which language he is drawn to?

The problem with acquiring language skills young is that it can sometimes shoehorn you into an area that you may not actually be interested in as you grow and mature, becuase people will say you should not waste such an advantage. I think of the children of a good friend of mine who has a Russian wife and lived in China. They were trilingual in English, Russian and Chinese before the age of 5. I wonder if they'll ever be allowed to work in a job that doesn't need any of those languages.

Hmm. Interesting point, which may well be the case for some people. However, it hasn't worked out that way for me. I know that I have a real talent for languages, and I have acquired fluency in several (including one not even mentioned on this thread Wink), but I didn't do languages at university (figured I could learn them easily anyway) and I don't really use any of my languages in my current job.

What I do use extensively in my work life is the intercultural skills that I acquired from the study of various different languages. I:)

Kampeki · 14/04/2015 08:37

Thinking further about this thread while in the shower :) and I think an important factor that I didn't mention is the likelihood of being able to visit a country and spend time there. I think it's very difficult to acquire fluency and confidence in the language without doing this, so perhaps that should be a factor. I have seen my dd's language skills increase exponentially when actually in a country, and I experienced the same thing myself!

BIWI · 14/04/2015 09:25

I agree, Kampeki

I've been studying Mandarin (in a fairly half-hearted way it has to be said!) for several years now, and have sort of reached GCSE level. But I've never been to China, and am very unlikely to go there in the same way that I might visit a European country.

So it's something I just keep plodding away at - because I want to continue, and not for any other reason. But if I've had a break for any length of time, like over the summer, Christmas, Easter holidays, it's noticeable just how much I've forgotten when I start again.

Whatever language you/he decides on, this is always going to be the case however. So it comes back to why you/he make the choice that you do.

Any MFL is a good, intellectual challenge. If it's just for the fun of it, then choose the one you/he have most affinity with. You/he may want something more challenging - in which case Mandarin/Japanese may fit the bill - or you/he may want something that's easy to obtain a qualification in. In which case, Spanish/Italian may be the solution.

Alyosha · 14/04/2015 10:06

I did Russian at Uni and lived in Ukraine (Donetsk Sad) for a full year. I would say that I am conversationally fluent. I did it ab initio.

As others say, the alphabet is the easiest part of learning the language, and the grammar is very straight forward, with none of the reams and reams of exceptions you have to learn in French! Perfective verbs can be tricky though.

The real issue in Russian is the vocab - very few cognates in comparison to French/Spanish/German so it is hard going, and very frustrating.

I have found 0 use being a semi-fluent Russian speaker in the jobs world, and again as others have said, simply doing GCSE or even A level Russian does not make you any where near fluent. Honestly, considering the huge numbers of native speakers of all languages in the UK, your language skills will only come in use if you want to live and work abroad. If a job needs a Russian/Mandarin/Japanese speakers they will have large numbers of native proficiency speakers who are also native in English. I would suggest that no one in their right minds would want to live long term in Russia (sorry!). Ukraine, maybe!

I enjoy speaking Russian (it feels like a comfortable pair of socks - nice and familiar) but I would need to live there for another 3-5 years to attain "near-native" proficiency. Fluency is a much overused word in the language world!

SpecialistSubject · 14/04/2015 20:02

Absolutely magnificent posts. This has been incredibly helpful.

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roguedad · 14/04/2015 20:03

Take a look at the British Council report available here:

www.britishcouncil.org/sites/britishcouncil.uk2/files/languages-for-the-future.pdf

It gives a good idea of priorities based on different criteria, such as business or number of people you can talk to etc. Here are some examples:

Most speakers as 1st language: Mandarin, Spanish, English, Hindi
Top UK export markets: German, Dutch, French, Mandarin

But the report as a whole is worth reading. I think my son is going to focus on German and Mandarin. The overall ranking I think was Spanish, Arabic, French, Mandarin, German including other factors.

SwedishEdith · 14/04/2015 20:13

Agree that this is a great thread. I love people who know about this stuff.

Interesting about Brazilian Portuguese being easier to understand by why does Portuguese Portuguese sound so different to Spanish? What's the reason for that?

summerends · 14/04/2015 22:24

Agree that posts have been really interesting as well as informative. So many talented linguists here.
Luckily my DCs are past any such decisions because TBH even though I now know more about the pros and cons for learning some of these MFLs I'm still not sure which one I would be advising (if all other factors such as teachers, results etc were equal) Smile.

clary · 14/04/2015 23:31

On Russian - a colleague of mine (I teach MFL) did Russian at Uni and says it was the biggest mistake - she has never used it, it was really hard and she can't remember it at all now :(

She is 30 btw so I am not talking about 25 years ago.

I do think German or Spanish would be more useful; speaking as a linguist German would be more of a challenge to someone who already does Latin and French so maybe better than the "easy" Spanish. But then I did German at uni so I would say that Grin

Kampeki · 14/04/2015 23:48

On Russian - a colleague of mine (I teach MFL) did Russian at Uni and says it was the biggest mistake - she has never used it, it was really hard and she can't remember it at all now

That's interesting. Of all the languages I have learned, Russian is the one I've retained the least, even though I used to be quite competent in it. My French wasn't nearly as good, but I can still manage a decent conversation.

JessieMcJessie · 15/04/2015 04:12

SwedishEdith (and others on this thread) you might enjoy the book "Lingo" by Gaston Dorren

Lingo Book

I think it explains the Spanish/Portuguese divide though I can't for the life of me remember what it said. I'll check my copy tonight!

MarmiteAndButter · 15/04/2015 04:30

My DCs are both learning German and Arabic (not in the UK, at an international school with an emphasis on languages).
Spanish is way easier to start with as he learning curve for German is harder, but then it evens out after the first year. Expect rapid progress fast with Spanish, slow and almost non existent with German and then massive leaps ahead.
Arabic is just bloody hard but my eldest works really conscientiously with it and is making excellent progress for "an English girl."

saffronwblue · 15/04/2015 04:39

Dd does Japanese and loves it. As well as manga there is a whole world of anime.
I will admit to sometimes bleakly feeling that the future world will be divided into those who speak mandarin and can participate in China's domination and those who don't. ...
Surely French is key to reading philosophers?

SpecialistSubject · 15/04/2015 05:11

How old is your DD saffron? Did she have a free choice of language and, if so, what led to her choosing Japanese? (Was it purely as a protest against Mandarin?)

French, thankfully, is compulsory.

roguedad Thank you for the BC link. It makes decision criteria rather more concrete.

I'm a little sad, though fascinated, to hear people's Russian stories. I suppose I imagined that even after functional language competency had eroded one might retain some extra connection with Russian culture - poems learned by heart, an extra insight into news headlines, greater depth and breadth in your iTunes library, or at the very least memories of a fantastic exchange trip - but no one seems to be saying that ...

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Alyosha · 15/04/2015 07:06

One of the issues with Russian is that the formal written language is very different from the everyday spoken language. This can make reading Russian literature in the original a tortuous task! And retaining enough Russian to understand news headlines is tough - I attend weekly Russian classes to try and keep up, but it's a struggle.

Interesting to hear others' experiences with French - I only did French to A level but I understand French news articles much better than I understand Russian news articles. However my spoken Russian is miles ahead of my spoken French.

My year in Donetsk was an incredible experience. But my memories are being - literally - destroyed by Russia. Perhaps I'm a little biased..

Your DD will get a lot further with Spanish and ubderatand a lot more after having done French - that will surely be very motivating and stand her in good stead if she'd like to do MFL at uni.

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