Almost unrestricted choice of Modern Language for yr9. How to choose? Help!

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So - you're 13 and about to move from prep to senior school. You have to choose one ML to take alongside French. (Grammar reasonably advanced so far, vocab somewhat neglected ...) After yr9 you can carry on with both to GCSE or drop the new ML. (No late changes of mind possible.)

The options are Spanish, Italian, German, Russian, Japanese, Mandarin.

You like, and will continue with, Latin. You're neutral (and damn lazy) on Greek. If your choice doesn't work out you'll have only one ML GCSE / IGCSE (not certain which exam atm.) And you're currently 13 less unenthusiastic about Arts than Sciences so languages are more likely to feature in your future school career.

Your family are dithering. Pros / cons blah blah blah ...

Please advise.

So do you think that, all other things being equal, children should choose the harder option?

All other things stated in my previous post being equal (and obviously including psychological stress thresholds) yes. Don't you?

Good lord no!

To take ds's case, for example- he (at the moment, obviously subject to change) wants to have a go at going to Cambridge. So he will need as close as possible to a full house of As and A*s at GCSE. Nobody has ever done that at his school before. So he will have to work hard. If there is a GCSE option that can get him the grade with a bit less work than another one (all other things being equal) then IMHO he should go for it. He didn't have a preference between French and Spanish. He finds Spanish much easier. Neither language is any more or less useful. So Spanish it was. Do you think he should have taken French because it would be more character building?

If you saying that his level of ability and environment are limiting then that scenario is excluded from ' all other things being equal' That might be in my 'particularly challenged in other areas' category.
Having said that, if the teaching was good enough then I would have said yes go for French because with a bit more effort you could do it.

It's not for character building, it is more about building up neural networks and developing the ability to tackle intellectual difficulties.

Enthusiasm for your course

And finally we're looking for students who really want to learn about the subject they've applied for and aren't just interested in the degree at the end. Think carefully about why you've chosen your course. Instead of selecting the course you think you ought to do, think about which course and subject area(s) you're most enthused and inspired about studying for the next few years.

Taken from the page on admissions criteria on University of Cambridge website. Seems to be me you should be thinking like this right from the start.

I think Spanish is a great idea because your DD's ability to actually speak Spanish at the end of the course - already knowing Latin & French - will be much greater than her ability to speak Russian at the end of a Russian GCSE course.

That's a useful skill, and she may well retain it better later in life if she doesn't continue it to A level. Because it's easier, she'll learn more, she'll be more motivated, she'll feel "good" at languages. Those are all positive things and will hopefully build a lifelong love of languages that might not come as easily to a child struggling with a language very different from the ones she's already studied.

There's nothing wrong with something being easier because of your DD's existing knowledge!

As other posters have mentioned, there are many opportunities to study Japanese, Mandarin, Russian, German etc ab initio at University, having already done a language A level. University courses will often integrate a year abroad and push your DD to higher levels of fluency than any GCSE - A level course ever could. But those opportunities are only there for someone who really wants to take them. And I think someone is more likely to take the opportunity to study MFL at uni if they already feel confident in their foreign language abilities.

Indrid - you're unlikely to display a real enthusiasm for MFL if your abiding memories are working hard for 3 years and then barely being able to understand newspapers/native language media at the end of it. Not to mention developing a real love of Spain/Germany/France/Italy is much easier as they are so much more accessible in terms of distance and cost - and visas!

"Seems to be me you should be thinking like this right from the start.

But what if you have to choose between two options- neither of which enthuse you greatly but of which one is compulsory? Remember we are talking GCSE not choosing a degree course!

i take your point, Hakyult, in terms of academic rigour there is probably not much difference between French and Spanish so you may as well choose the one you find easier.

My point really was that if you had a real interest in trying Japanese, you shouldn't choose Spanish because it is a safer option or will be more 'useful'.

On a lighter note, the Telegraph sports reporter got royally caught out yesterday when he attended a big press conference only to find the whole thing being conducted in German. Needless to say he found his GCSE German totally inadequate to the task! Link

Pragmatically there is usually some factor that swings it one way or the other for that sort of choice. At that age and level relative difficulty between two similar languages as a beginner is usually more to do with the teaching and exposure.

Can't really add much to this but DD will be sitting Japanese GCSE in June. She took her speaking exam for it at the end of last term. This is entirely something that has come from her and I am to be honest pretty clueless but organised a Skype tutor at her request and arranged with school to let her drop an option she hated and for her to sit as a private candidate.

She used to be into Manga and Anime but isn't so much these days, there are a few Japanese books ariund that she has found. She's been fortunate to receive some funding from a local charity and will be spending a couple of weeks in Japan at a language school this summer.

She really struggles with French and Spanish. Interesting to read the bit about Japanese and Dyslexia, she was diagnosed with Dypspraxia in Reception.

"y point really was that if you had a real interest in trying Japanese, you shouldn't choose Spanish because it is a safer option or will be more 'useful'."

Of course not. But if you have to choose between the two and have no strong preference, then it seems to me to be daft not to choose the easier option.

This is moving away from topic but If easier meant that you could reach a more advanced level in that language (unlikely with GCSE) or it gave you more time to tackle difficulties in other subjects I would agree. However if somebody is aiming for Oxbridge. and has the ability but a default approach to always choosing easier options or topics then IMO that would be a concern for when tackling future challenges in higher education.

I think you're reading a little too much into this, Summerends, "easier" is a bit subjective - and impossible to really gauge through GCSE or A level options. Oxford and Cambridge helpfully tell you which GCSE's and A levels they consider to be doss subjects; no MFL features as far as I can see.

www.trin.cam.ac.uk/acceptable-level-subject-combinations

If you are applying for Oxbridge, for any subject, a broad range of GCSEs helps and a few "easier" ones are allowed in the mix!!! Of course you need the essentials with the majority of your subjects at A*. If you can manage 2 MFL GCSEs or A levels, it really will not matter which ones, as long as your child is interested and good enough to learn the vocabulary and has some interest in the literature and culture. If you child is not carrying on MFLs to A level, it makes no difference whatsoever regarding choice. You only really become good at a language by living in the country as a student. GCSE does not get you very far. However so few students offer MFL A levels, university offers from top universities are lower than for many other subjects. My DD thought ab initio students in one of her languages were behind the A level holders for 2 years and held the class up. Ab initio is not to be undertaken lightly. I loved the guide to choosing a language. It rather ties in with DDs decision!!

Or even 1 MFL.............

Aloysha you are somewhat missing the point that this is arguing a theoretical scenario of Hakluyt. Having said that I know what sort intellectual qualities I am looking for and a tendency to taking the easy, less adventurous option is not one of them.

I thought the OP was asking about 2. However one is better than none, but two is better preparation for MFL at university as it gives more options and shows you might just have a flair for languages.

How on earth would you know if a candidate had intentionally rejected Japanese because they wanted an easier ride with German? Candidate can easily say "I chose German because of my love of Goethe" and you'd never know!

Ab initio Russian was no doddle, but the year abroad tends to even people out substantially - by the end I was at the top of the non ab initio Advanced group for Grammar, middle in written & speaking.

Millymm One ML - French - is a given; it must be taken to GCSE level. There is an embarrassment of riches with regards to the second language which must be taken in yr9 and can then be either dropped or carried on to GCSE.

FWIW many of the new yr9s would already have been working at beyond GCSE level by the end of yr8 - so I'm guessing they wouldn't expect lessons in the new ML to be anything less than ambititious.

"Having said that I know what sort intellectual qualities I am looking for and a tendency to taking the easy, less adventurous option is not one of them."

1. How would you know that's what happened?
2. if you're an Oxbridge admissions tutor you're unlikely to see anyone for whom choosing the "easy, less adventurous option" resulted in a C!

1) How would you know that's what happened?

Because you implied that's what happened on the previous page?!

Apologies for me getting carried away with discussing self indulgent argument about this rather abstract point.
IMO this is not about qualifications needed for interview filters or even success but a mindset for academic growth, flexibility of thought and enjoying the challenge of difficulty.
Having said that, a C in GCSE is rather unlikely for a bright student (without LDs etc) with a bit of effort and reasonable teaching.

"IMO this is not about qualifications needed for interview filters or even success but a mindset for academic growth, flexibility of thought and enjoying the challenge of difficult"

Absolutely. But also being pragmatic, surely, with eyes on a prize? Surely you wouldn't expect someone to risk not achieving a goal by choosing an immediate challenge?

Indrid- apologies- I meant how would a future admissions tutor know?