Almost unrestricted choice of Modern Language for yr9. How to choose? Help!

[SpecialistSubject]

So - you're 13 and about to move from prep to senior school. You have to choose one ML to take alongside French. (Grammar reasonably advanced so far, vocab somewhat neglected ...) After yr9 you can carry on with both to GCSE or drop the new ML. (No late changes of mind possible.)

The options are Spanish, Italian, German, Russian, Japanese, Mandarin.

You like, and will continue with, Latin. You're neutral (and damn lazy) on Greek. If your choice doesn't work out you'll have only one ML GCSE / IGCSE (not certain which exam atm.) And you're currently 13 less unenthusiastic about Arts than Sciences so languages are more likely to feature in your future school career.

Your family are dithering. Pros / cons blah blah blah ...

Please advise.

I'm a little sad, though fascinated, to hear people's Russian stories. I suppose I imagined that even after functional language competency had eroded one might retain some extra connection with Russian culture - poems learned by heart, an extra insight into news headlines, greater depth and breadth in your iTunes library, or at the very least memories of a fantastic exchange trip - but no one seems to be saying that ...

I do feel sad about how little Russian I have retained. I feel very little connection to Russian culture, although I do have an enduring love of Russian literature and theatre.

Funnily enough, virtually the only Russian that I can now remember are random passages from Pushkin, which I can still recite perfectly! Not terribly useful in terms of communication!

I think the problem is that it's very hard to know which languages will be the most useful 10-15 years in the future. When I was at school it was all about Japanese. Now it's all about Mandarin. There was a brief period pre-financial crisis when Russian was very much in demand- not so much now though.

If you want to have useful Mandarin you really have to commit because you need to learn something like 3,000 characters just to read a tabloid newspaper. There are 4 tones so the same word can mean 5 different things. You could get a bacehlor degree in Mandarin and still not cope in a business meeting. Ironically, Chinese kids often use the Roman alphabet to help them learn to read. On that basis, I wouldnt bother with it at GCSE. If you really want to learn it, you have to just move to China for a few years and get a Chinese bf (not joking).

Re China dominating when our children are adults, maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of bumps in the road for them (aging population, break up of extended family structure, almost inevitable transition to some sort of democracy, huge income disparity).

it's only gcse

to foster a feeling of 'being good at languages' might be a good starting point in choosing at this age. that feeling would last a lifetime and be more long term use.
i really wouldnt bother harbouring thoughts of snippets of poetry etc. raps and discussing tatoos now suggested for gcse competence

I do think, though, that there is (or should be) more to the decision about whether to study a language than Am I Going to Speak It In My Job When I Grow Up. I really hate the British attitude, that it is pointless learning other languages because everyone else speaks English.

A bit like Classics, which you would think are totally irrelevant now, languages are perceived as being difficult, and some more so than others. Good grades, or even a degree in a language is an indicator of a certain level of cleverness and ability.

Choosing an unusual language might also indicate a more adventurous mindset, which might give someone an advantage in future job interviews. If nothing else, trips or exchange visits to the country concerned can provide something to talk about knowledgeably in interviews.

As someone who took a degree in a 'sensible' subject that I hated because it would help lead to a better job, if I had my time again I would do a subject I loved instead, worked harder and got a better grade at the end of it.

to foster a feeling of 'being good at languages' might be a good starting point in choosing at this age. that feeling would last a lifetime and be more long term use.

Yup. I wrote a long post expanding on just this point yesterday. Phone froze (laughing at me probably.)

I do realise this all seems a bit over-invested - but I'm terribly aware of how my own sense of self is very much based on "wot I did at school" just as much as university and professional experience. So although, ostensibly we're talking about just 1-3 years of school, (for any child, not just a particular one) in my mind I see a lifetime of knowing oneself to be this person or that - able to feel either relaxed or intimidated, open to or closed off from any given situation - dependent on this rare instance of actually having a choice.

It's ridiculously kind of you all to indulge me like this.

Dd is 13. She points out that learning kanji in Japanese is basically learning Chinese characters and would be a great basis for later studies in Chinese .

Also Japanese is a great language to learn as Asia is getting very influential and a good language should she ever want to pursue a career in business plus Japanese is very satisfying to learn (from saffron's daughter)

To buck the apparent Russian trend, I retain much more of my Russian than my German/French/Spanish. It's the language I have kept up the most - I watch the occasional film (large and largely ignored film culture - especially mid-century), read a newsaper every month or so, listen to cheesy pop music (Ivanushki anyone?)/radio etc. etc. A lot of short-story writing, which is easier to read than the massive classics. I find the culture much more interesting than Western European ones (which have a more similar scene/worldview to here in the UK). We (me & DC) are learning Italian at the mo (starting with Michel Thomas CDs) and it reinforces to me just how much French/Spanish I have forgotten. If you are interested in the place, any language will stick more as it enables you to access the culture.

On the whole GCSE is a low hurdle, but is better than no hurdle at all. As an intellectual exercise, language learning is probably the best and most accessible to continue throughout life. But like anything, if you are not too bothered about doing it, then you probably won't.

yes yes to 'if you are interested in a place'
thats a really good starting point

"Satisfying to learn" may well be the number one priority - thank you saffronsdaughter.

Now - does anyone have any wise words on either

In Praise Of Shadows by Junichiro Tanizaki

or

The Sailor Who Fell From Grace With The Sea by Yukio Mishima?

"I do think, though, that there is (or should be) more to the decision about whether to study a language than Am I Going to Speak It In My Job When I Grow Up."

I agree. There is also Which Am I Most Likely To Get A A* In To Support My Attempt To Get Into Cambridge.

IndridC's- if I was a social media savvy teenager I would tag it with a 'like' but basically I completely agree.
Hakluyt for those who have that early fixed narrow mindset, IMO any brightish teenager without LD can get one of top GCSE grade in any MFL by putting in the learning effort. Does n't need any particular talent at that stage.

Hakluyt

Which Am I Most Likely To Get A A* In To Support My Attempt To Get Into Cambridge.

and that's bad why exactly?

My time at Cambridge was extremely happy and fulfilling. If you're not particularly fussed about which language to do, why not base your choice on a strategy to get there (or whichever else University you may want to go to)?

I really can't be doing with reverse snobbery.

OP - haven't read any Mishima, but Tanizaki's The Makioka Sisters is one of my favorite books!

DS is very into Japanese culture at the moment, particularly anime, but we have also been watching the Kurosawa samurai films together which has been great.

Ps thanks summer ;)

Ah - by coincidence Indrid I'm just about to borrow exactly those films from the person I gave them to.

(If you have not already you should , btw, get hold of The Last Samurai www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0099284626/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_ne5lvb08FC5TJ
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0099284626/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_ne5lvb08FC5TJ by Helen De Witt. Nothing to do with the films except that the mother and son in the novel watch them repeatedly. It is unutterably superb.

I'm thinking of sending In Praise of Shadows to someone who might need a little gentle reflection at this point in the term.

Realistically GCSE is not going to get you to a standard to be of any real use in terms of later life. So he might as well just study what he wants to. All languages are pretty much equal in terms of GCSE kudos, I think. And if he's taking it up in Y9 he might not continue it to GCSE anyway.

My good-at-languages son chose his GCSE options recently and had to choose between a couple of languages, one which he'd been studying for a year and a new one, and in the end he chose on the basis of the taster session he had for the new language - he didn't think much of the teacher. He's already doing Latin and French, so this is a third language.

Most languages can be studied ab initio at university as long as there is one A-level language, so he could always take up Russian or Mandarin or Italian or Japanese then if he wanted to study them.

I kind of disagree on the Russian grammar being easier than German - 6 cases rather than 4? two forms of every verb with many irregular or unguessable pairings? But I guess you might be thinking tenses and moods rather than noun forms.

"Which Am I Most Likely To Get A A* In To Support My Attempt To Get Into Cambridge.

and that's bad why exactly? "

Not bad at all. Precisely why ds is doing Spanish.

I was amused by the high mindedness of some other reasons, that's all. It's GCSE. You get that by being able to ask the way to the swimming pool and itemise the contents of your pencil case. Unless you intend to take the language further the best one to choose, unless you have a particular interest, is the one you find easiest.

That is what this thread has taught me singersgirl. I started with the thought that it might be a life-defining (or at least career-defining) decision - so many people have assured me otherwise that I feel I can relax and explore (in order to pass on) what might be most fun rewarding during the time it is being studied.

No - I disagree Hakluyt. This opportunity won't come again - I would want any child in this position to get more out of it than simply not having to think very hard.

There may be plenty of positive reasons for studying Spanish (say) - genuine interest amongst them - but the one you find easiest just isn't good enough.

What does your child want to do? What do they feel interested in or passionate about?

A GCSE isn't going to get them far in practical terms, so I say do the language that they find personally fascinating.

If they are considering Mandarin--get a CD and do a bit of taster work first, before making the final decision. See if they can actually "get" the difference pitches. Some people get it just fine (I was one of them), others... by adolescence they have lost the ability to distinguish or reproduce the different pitches, and if that is the case for your child then doing Mandarin is a waste of time. So check that before opting to do Mandarin.

Mandarin and Japanese involve learning lots of characters. It is perfectly possible for English speaking westerners to master these writing systems, but be warned, it IS hard work and you have to be prepared to put some wellie into the task. So think about that before opting for Mandarin or Japanese. If your child is OK with this and finds the idea of writing those funny looking characters interesting and appealing, then by all means go for it--I love Mandarin and Japanese!

"There may be plenty of positive reasons for studying Spanish (say) - genuine interest amongst them - but the one you find easiest just isn't good enough."

Why not? Bearing in mind that my caveat about genuine interest, which some will have.

To my mind the biggest problem with education today is that too many people think that an impressive list of qualifications is the same thing as an education. Haklyuts posts here illustrate this attitude nicely. I would hope that the Cambridge admissions process would be able to weed out a candidate who had chosen a subject merely because they thought it would be 'easier' to get an A . I think that they would prefer students with a genuine interest, or even love, for their studies.

Specialist that book looks fascinating, and has been ordered to accompany me on my imminent weeks holiday!

But Indrid sometimes you need the actual results to get a foot in the door somewhere. If somewhere (uni, job) has loads of applicants, they may often uses exam results as an initial weeding out process. If Cambridge these days requires straight As then doing a more interesting but harder MFL if you then want to do sciences for degree may not be the best choice.

Similarly, when DD1 was choosing her GCSE options I asked each teacher whether they would expect her to get a C grade or higher. I would have needed persuading for her to do an interesting course with less chance of a C grade over and above a slightly less interesting but easier to pass one.

My point is that if you have no particular preference for whatever reason, choose the one you find easiest. That's why my ds chose Spanish. That is not the reason he chose History.

And no, the Oxbridge admissions process does not go into why you chose your GCSEs when you were 14.

Hak I can understand that approach for a DC who has LDs or is a pure mathematician or is particularly challenged or committed in other areas.
However otherwise that mindset of going for the easiest option (once interests, ability and teaching quality are factored in) is not one that would make the most of an Oxbridge type education. The whole point surely is to be open to challenges and different learning experiences. I think that attitude would permeate into other aspects of a student's learning in a negative way.