Would you spend everything you had to educate your children privately or settle for a perfectly OK state school (at secondary level)?

[Enid]

dh and I having this discussion atm

when i say everything it would mean me working full time, no holidays etc

interested to hear mumsnet's take on it

I apologize if these points have been made, but just in case they haven't - why do people think thaprivate education is better than state? In some cases maybe it is, but there are plenty of cr*p private schools and plenty of fabulous state ones. My second point relates to something someone(sorry - can't remember who) said earlier.She said that because children spend so long at school it should be the best educational experience possible. I think that because they spend so long at school it should be the happiest experience possible. I sometimes dispair of the low academic expectations of my children's excellent state school BUT they are happy and confident and they are mixing with an enormous range of people. And, crucially, I feel that I can make up academic deficiencies at home. I can't make up at home for the emotional damage done by an unhappy school life. Or for the hideous shock that real life sometimes is to the sheltered and protected private school educated (and I speak as one!) There is much more to education than academic achievement - IMHO it's just as important to learn to rub along with "all sorts and conditions of men" And women. And I can't do that at home. I can play Mozar in the background at breakfast and take them to the Tate in the holidays.

Batters - of course I generalise and I have met some great privately educated children but i was responding to Xenia's post.

Curlew and Yeahbut put it beautifully.

Enid, I'd try the state school and stick with it, I feel it's better to be around for your kids when they feel like talking to you! than working FT and seeing them for an hour a day.

Time will come when they leave home and you won't see much of them then, enjoy it while they're young.

kaz, I know. Same points but the other way around.
Confidence is it arrogance? My chidlren are at academic day schools, not those ridiculous psychologically damaging boarding schools with poor exam results where just about anyone can get in if they can pay. There's a difference there.

Surprisingly my children's private schools were in some senses more mixed than the racially polarised local state schools because the criteria to entry of ours is essentially IQ with huge demand for places so they are as likely to be in a class with the child of the local indian shopkeeper all of whose spare family income goes into the fees as the child of a richer parent.

My point below was it's not a stark choice sacrifice all and never have holidays and put loads of pressure on this poor child or go to state school. It was think laterally and earn some extra money instead so the fees aren't a huge burden. Many a non working mother goes back to school when the chidlren are 5 and the salary pays fees for 2 or 3 children.

Just ploughing my way through this very long thread. DD1 currently goes to a private prep school and I guess DD2 will follow her. However, we live in the catchment area of a very good state secondary school, but, assuming we're still here at that time, I wonder if we will have blown our chances of sending the DDs there. There are more childre in the first year of the senior school than the whole of DD's very serene and secure prep school (serenity and security being two of the reasons we chose it). The children who go there cope with that because they transfer en masse from the local primary schools. DD1 wouldn't know anyone.

My guess is that DD1 is sort of second quartile academically (the "tops" in lots of other ways!). No idea about DD2. A couple of things I've read have suggested that it is precisely those children who benefit most from private education, at least in terms of academic results. So I don't quite buy the 'only send them privately if they are bright' argument.

DH is absolutely adamant that we give the girls the 'best education we can afford'. Whatever 'best' might be. For several years during his childhood his parents made fairly stringent economies to afford the school fees. Interestingly whenever DH talks about this he visibly wells up as he sees it as evidence not of the mis-guided pushiness of his now-dead parents but of their unstinting love for him and his brother. DH and his BIL both enjoyed school, went on to Cambridge and have each, in their own way, done very well.

Finally, I completely agree with KS who said way back down the thread that try as she might she couldn't help her son through school. I agree. Putting aside the difficulties of teaching your own children and trying to second guess what had or had not been well taught in school, just finding the time for you and even more the child would be exceptionally tough. Have any Mnetters done that?

Sorry I went off on a bit of a tangent there and failed to answer Enid's question. Despite all the incoherent rambling in my post, I still think you should start with the State school. As PPH said, if it's tough now, it will only get worse and if your children or unhappy or ill-provided for in the State school, you can always swap into the private sector. And thinking about it, while DH's parents made economies, DH's mother never went as far as going out to work!!

Enid, this is a profoundly personal decision. For what it's worth I had a poor private education and by the time I moved to a better school it was too late to really turn around my results. Some people thrive at private school and some don't. My sister had a miserable time at Cambridge University - being in a highly competitive environment doesn't suit everyone. The one thing that private school can give people is a sense of confidence. Unfortunately this can be partly based on the idea that they are superior to the majority of people. Not so nice really. And however impressive this confidence is - it sometimes isn't very real and perhaps has to be paid for in later life when the bluster wears out.

My son is at the local state primary, 5 minutes walk away. It's not a perfect school but I've become a school governor and am working hard to support the school in whatever way I can. If you're not working you can be there to support your children in so many ways. But this obviously won't work for everyone. Personally, I would hate to have no holidays - I just don't think that's a sacrifice I could make.

The other problem with private schools is that if you're very pushed financially your child is going to be surrounded by far wealthier kids and that could put even more pressure on you to provide a rich lifestyle. Everyone needs different things but I would hate to feel broke all the time surrounded by people with tons of cash. And the extras at private school are unbelievable and can be crippling if things are tight.

All the best for your decision

Yeahbut- a powerful cautionary tale!!!

I don't think my children have been made to look down on children from state schools at all. They play sport with some. There are some schemes for co-operation between the schools. Parents instill most moral values in children whether the children are at state or private schools. My daughters always had friends at state schools because of their various hobbies out of school so I don't think they grew up separate and apart and looking down on people. I think their social and personal skills in talking to a wide range of people of all ages are probably better than had they been at a state school but that might just be their own personalities.

This is a completely academic debate for most people because I think the average wage in the UK is £20k so private school is not something that's even a possibility.

Haven't read the whole thread but earlier on Enid you said thwere were lots of good private schools areound the area and you were worried about the 'brain drain'.

That assumes that the people who can afford to educate privately have children with better abilities. That is not the case. I know children who are being privately educated that are very average in the achieving department. A couple are at private school because they are not academically gifted but are good at music and that subject is catered better for in this particular private school.

For us it was no contest - we could not afford it. End of story.

Enid, in your shoes, I think I would stand firm in the face of the worrying relatives and let the DDs go to the state school. Going private from the off doesn't leave you enough financial contingency, and will cause too much knock-on pressure.

Use the private option as your contingency - and hope you don't need to use it, as of course the 'told you so' from the relatives will be unbearable!

It's MAD to plump for that much pressure without even trying a perfectly fine alternative first! IMO, of course!

Message withdrawn

I'm too tired to join in this thread again but I do wish bloss when you accuse someone of not making a coherent argument you would not make sweeping assumptions about the argument that they were originally making

the fact that you clearly don't realise that they are assumptions makes me realise how far apart on this debate, and many others, we really are

for a start, I've already said it's not about 'travelling the world' after the first time but, oh sod it, I can't be bothered

Message withdrawn

just come back and have to add to queenpea head , that i htought your post quite rude, the school in question is Winchester- not exactly a bad school and my dd1 is at a prep that has just been awarded top boarding prep school in hte country by the ISC and we have negogiated 20% of dd2 fees when she goes . I guess it just depends on how hard you are prepared to push bursars or heads. My husband conducted the negogiations over our childrens fees just like any buisness deal , tbh it made me feel uncomfortable but as he pointed out it is a lot of money and we are the customers so why not haggle a bit.

As the daughter of Jamaican immigrants, I concur with everything that Lemonysnicket said. My acamdemic success and self confidence was a result of my parents belief in me and the strong work ethic they instilled in our family. The teachers at my school told me (as they did the other black girls) that I would not get into university let alone get any O'levels. Well I did pass them, went to college to get my A'levels and then onto university to get my degree and and PhD in chemistry. Before I had my DTS, went part-time and changed jobs, I was running a group of 50 scientists and engineers (quite a few of them went to private school) and presenting papers at international scientific conferences as well as publishing papers in peer reviewed journals. Not bad for someone who went to a below average state comprehensive.

In my personal experience, if you want to succeed, you will. In addition, self confidence and self-belief starts at home, not in school. I had that and that's why I proved my racist, negative and insulting teachers wrong. I did not allow them to put me down and write me off and I have my parents to thank for that.

IMHO, parents need to have more belief in their children and the state school system in this country. I bet if that tragic murder that took place in Harrow school last had taken place in a state school, there would be a lot of people using that to justify their view that state schools were full of unmotivated miscreants whose only interest was to derail the education of the few who actually want to learn.

The truth is that the best academic private and state schools are that way because they select and just like you have unmotivated pupils in state schools, you have them in private schools too.

Ultimately, parents should choose the school that is best for their child but I don't think bankrupting yourself in order to send your child to private school is logical or sane.

Speedymama a friend of mine's sister was not allowed in the school Netball team because 'black girls were no good at netball'. She now represents England in Netball.

I love stories like yours.

I think non-white children get more self confidence and much less racism at private schools including Harrow.

Xenia, as opposed to black children whose parents can't afford private education? there's one huge fatcor to look at...and anyway, I think that depends hugely on the area they come from and the school they go to! A wild generalisation, surely?

Totally disagree Xenia. Racism transcends class, money as well as status. The racism one experiences will depend on the people they encounter.

My job is in an area that is predominantly white, affluent and many of the children go to private schools. When I first started my job, I was called a nigger and sambo at work which I reported and the offender given a warning (imo he should have been sacked). On the high street I was subjected to monkey noises by private school kids in their posh uniforms so goodness knows how a non-white child would fare at their school.

That was several years ago and one would hope things are better now but in my experience, racism is more covert and insiduous. My answer to it is to ignore the ignoramuses and be a success because more than anything, that irritates them because it goes against their stereotypical, narrow-minded beliefs.